Why The Church Still Matters Today (with Carmen Imes)

With churchgoing in decline in the US, what is the relevance of the church today? What’s the significance of the Bible using the language of family to describe the church? And what do we say to the person who insists that they can have a vibrant spiritual life but don’t need the church? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest colleague in OT, Dr. Carmen Imes, from her new book, Becoming God’s Family. 

Dr. Carmen Imes is Associate Professor of Old Testament at Talbot. She is passionate about helping students and other laypeople engage the Old Testament and discover its relevance for Christian identity and mission. She is best known for her books Bearing God's Name: Why Sinai Still Matters (IVP 2019) and Being God's Image: Why Creation Still Matters (IVP 2023). Imes has appeared on over 100 podcasts and radio shows and releases weekly "Torah Tuesday" videos on her own YouTube channel. 

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Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture is a podcast from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, which offers degrees both online and on campus in Southern California.

Find all episodes of Think Biblically at: https://www.biola.edu/think-biblically.

To submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to have on the podcast, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu.

Transcript

Scott Rae: 0:00

[upbeat music] With church going in decline in the United States, what's the relevance of the church today? And what's the significance of the Bible using the language of family to describe the church? And what do we say to the person who insists that they can have a vibrant spiritual life but don't need the church? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more with our guest today, our colleague in Old Testament, Dr. Carmen Imes, from her new book, Becoming God's Family. I'm your host, Scott Rae.

Sean McDowell: 0:27

And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.

Scott Rae: 0:29

This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology, Biola University. Carmen, welcome. So good to have you with us, as you- we talk about your... The final book in your trilogy of three-

Carmen Imes: 0:39

Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: 0:39

... On Becoming God's Family. So it's obvious from reading your book that the church is really important to you theologically and biblically- ... But also really personally, too. What's... Tell our, help our listeners understand a little bit about why that is.

Carmen Imes: 0:53

Sure. So I grew up in the church, and I don't ever remember a time when our family sat down on a Sunday morning to discuss whether we should, whether we should go. It was just obvious that we would go to church. It was never a question. Even when we went through really hard church situations, we went through an experience of a pastor failing, you know, falling into sin- ... And the whole church ended up closing, and that was a really tumultuous time for us, but there was never a, even a consideration of walking away from the church. It was just a question of, where do we go next? And I don't think I really realized how important the church was until more recent years when I started watching friends and family members just sort of lose interest and walk away, and I realized we need to make a case for why the church matters. It isn't obvious, and what I- while I couldn't see the forest for the trees because the church was so much a part of my life, the more s- time I've spent reflecting on it, the more I've just been, reinvigorated or recaptivated by the church. I feel like now that I'm looking for it, now that I'm noticing it, every week, I see stories of how God is at work in deep ways in people's lives, in and through the church, in ways that I don't think happen outside the church.

Sean McDowell: 2:14

Why does the church still matter today? In other words, like, summarize the big idea of your book. The church still matters today because...

Carmen Imes: 2:22

Because God designed us for community- ... And He never meant for us to walk the life of faith alone. And so if we disconnect from the church, we're actually cutting ourselves off from one of the most important formative life sources that we have.

Scott Rae: 2:36

Why, why don't... Why do you think people not see that- ... Today?

Carmen Imes: 2:41

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 2:41

I'm so curious about that because-

Carmen Imes: 2:44

Yeah

Scott Rae: 2:44

... People, I think it's, it's easy for some people to walk away from church because, "It's just not adding anything to my life."

Carmen Imes: 2:50

Yep. I-

Scott Rae: 2:50

But I, but I mean, obviously, that's probably the wrong way to frame it-

Carmen Imes: 2:53

Yep

Scott Rae: 2:53

... I would suggest, but how would you-

Carmen Imes: 2:55

Yeah

Scott Rae: 2:55

... Respond to that?

Carmen Imes: 2:56

I think m- for many, especially Westerners, who are just deeply invested in in- rugged individualism- ... Church has become just one more thing, one more, thing on my to-do list of self-actualization. I do all of these things to become a better me, and I evaluate the effectiveness of all of them based on whether it meets a felt need. And I think what we're missing is that church isn't about me, it's about us and what we're becoming. I think for some people, they imagine that church is gonna be the place where they learn things spiritually, like they, they learn new things about the Bible, and so they maybe have it in a, like a religious education category. So if they show up at church, and the sermon doesn't teach them anything new, they, they might think, "Why, why did I bother? I could learn more on YouTube than I did this morning- ... In church." And I think that's a, actually a category mistake. Church is not primarily about religious education, although religious education happens. I don't think it's primarily... The point is not primarily to teach us something we don't know. If it was, the three of us would be in big trouble, right? Like, the more theological education you have, the less you're likely to learn on a Sunday morning. But I have found that church, again and again, kind of recalibrates my compass. So if you think of the life of faith as, like, you have this internal compass pointing north, a compass, I'm told, I'm not, you know, an expert on this, but I'm told that a compass will start to point off-kilter if it's next to magnetic forces. Like, even if you just, like, put it next to a cell phone for a while, it might pull it off, course. And so every now and then, a compass needs to be checked to make sure it's pointing the right direction, and that is what I think the church is doing for us, among other things. That it's like this almost imperceptible realignment of our values and our mission, of what matters to us, and when we stop going regularly, when we stop g- being plugged into this community of people, I think we can gradually get pulled by the world in a new direction without realizing it. And so on a, on a given Sunday, I might not feel the needle moving, but 600 miles down the road, that one degree of difference makes a big difference in where I land.

Sean McDowell: 5:19

Which is exactly what Paul's talking about not being conformed to this world-

Carmen Imes: 5:24

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 5:24

... But transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Carmen Imes: 5:27

That's right.

Sean McDowell: 5:27

That's a very subtle, step-by-step process-

Carmen Imes: 5:31

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 5:31

... That gets us there. And I don't know the answer to this, but it's interesting, like, do people show up more saying, "I want to be educated. If I don't get- ... Educated here, I'll go somewhere else," versus just being entertained-

Carmen Imes: 5:42

Yep

Sean McDowell: 5:42

... And feeling good? I don't know the answer-

Carmen Imes: 5:45

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 5:45

... But I strike that might be a bigger boulder in, like, the-

Carmen Imes: 5:48

Sure

Sean McDowell: 5:48

... The pile, so to speak. But nonetheless, your point is that if our priorities aren't set on what the church is and why we should go, regardless of how we feel-

Carmen Imes: 5:58

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 5:58

... Whether we learn something new or not-... Then we're not gonna be there for the right reasons and grow, which I-

Carmen Imes: 6:03

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 6:03

... Which I think is the point.

Carmen Imes: 6:04

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 6:04

Yeah.

Carmen Imes: 6:04

You're absolutely right. I would say, I would say for a lot of people, it's, "I'm looking for a spiritual experience, some kind of inspiration- -and if I don't feel inspired, then it didn't work, and I should go find another venue."

Scott Rae: 6:17

Well, I think to take your compass analogy a little bit further, I think what it has to recalibrate is the, the, is people walk into the church with a compass pointed at themselves.

Carmen Imes: 6:25

[laughs] There you go.

Scott Rae: 6:26

And looking to find direction from that.

Carmen Imes: 6:28

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 6:28

And I think your point about it's not about us, but about- ... Or not about myself, but about-

Carmen Imes: 6:33

Yeah

Scott Rae: 6:33

... Us corporately-

Carmen Imes: 6:35

Yeah

Scott Rae: 6:35

... It helps recalibrate the compass away from- ... Looking at who we are internally.

Carmen Imes: 6:40

Yeah. You might not get any tangible benefit on a given Sunday, but someone else might have been so encouraged to see you there, and your smile or your side hug- ... Or whatever might have actually been the thing that gave them the strength to go through another week. And so we're not there for ourselves, we're there for each other, and in a radically individualized world, I think this is, this is radical. Like, to say,"I'm gonna go do something that's not about me, but it's about, you know, what God might do among us, what God might do through me for the sake of others."

Scott Rae: 7:14

You mean that's a little bit countercultural today?

Carmen Imes: 7:17

[laughs] It's a lot a bit countercultural.

Sean McDowell: 7:18

And you're right to call it a side hug, because there are-

Carmen Imes: 7:21

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 7:21

... Ways we show affection in the Church,[laughs] and that's a topic for another time. But I thought it was interesting, when we think about church, we often think about it being a New Testament concept. Of course, Jesus begins the Church in some sense with the Holy Spirit, in comparison to the Old Testament. But you're an Old Testament professor.

Carmen Imes: 7:40

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 7:40

So in some ways, it makes perfect sense that a majority of your book is really about kind of church, so to speak, as the community of God's people.

Carmen Imes: 7:50

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 7:50

So talk about where we see church, so to speak, in the Old Testament.

Carmen Imes: 7:53

Yeah, so I like to remind people that three-quarters of the Bible is the Old Testament. [laughing]

Scott Rae: 7:58

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 7:58

[laughs]

Carmen Imes: 7:58

And three-quarters of my book is in the Old Testament because this is a work of biblical theology. Unlike some books on the Church that are kind of practical how-to manuals or step-by-step guide to a better church, this one is a kind of slow trek through Scripture, looking at what does God do in the gathered community? Not just the positive examples, but also the negative examples. What happens when the people of God gather together around false ideas- ... Around the wrong values? What are the implications of that, and how does God respond? And so from the very beginning, you know, we start in Genesis, and I've isolated, episodes in God's story where the people of God come together, and God is doing something corporately among them. And so this, I think, lays the foundation for what we see about the Church in the New Testament. The- a lot of people talk about the Church as having started on the day of Pentecost, and I always get a little bit like, "Oh, you're missing the whole beginning of the story." There is something, fresh and new that happens at Pentecost, for sure. There... It is a starting in some senses, but it's, it's also in continuity with God's work among his people from the beginning. In particular, when the Spirit of God falls like fire at Pentecost, this connects in with this biblical theme of the Spirit coming as fire in the gathered community over and over again, so it connects us in with a bigger story.

Scott Rae: 9:27

Now, what would you say... We have stu- we have students here at Biola who, you know, they go to chapel, they go to Bible classes.

Carmen Imes: 9:34

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 9:35

They feel like, "This is good enough-

Carmen Imes: 9:37

Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: 9:37

... And I can have this vibrant spiritual life on my own."

Carmen Imes: 9:42

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 9:43

And i- and in part, that reflects, I think, the individualism of our, of our culture.

Carmen Imes: 9:48

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 9:48

And then, so, and what's become of that is that faith has become m- I think, more and more, a essentially a private matter.

Carmen Imes: 9:54

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 9:54

Without... It's a- it's about me and not about us.

Carmen Imes: 9:57

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 9:57

But what would you say to the person who says,"Look, I don't, I don't need the church. I'm getting everything I c- everything I need here in chapel and in my classes."

Carmen Imes: 10:05

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 10:06

Or f- you know, for the person who's not a student,"I'm getting everything I need on YouTube-

Carmen Imes: 10:10

Yeah

Scott Rae: 10:11

... Or from other-

Carmen Imes: 10:11

Yeah

Scott Rae: 10:11

... From other sources."

Carmen Imes: 10:13

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 10:13

"Or I can, or I can go to church online-

Carmen Imes: 10:15

Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: 10:15

... And, you know, stay home in my pajamas."

Carmen Imes: 10:17

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 10:18

What would you say to that person who says, "Look, I can have this vibrant spiritual life, but I don't need the church?"

Carmen Imes: 10:24

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 10:24

"The church is more trouble than it's worth."

Carmen Imes: 10:26

Yeah. Well, to the student, I would say there's something quite artificial about getting a bunch of 18 to 22-year-olds, mostly, in the same room to worship Jesus, and you sing, and you hear a message, and you leave. But there's not, weddings or funerals or baptisms or- ... Communion. Like, there's a, there's... It's missing some significant aspects of the life of the Church, and one of the primary things that's missing is intergenerational friendships that I think uniquely are formed in the church. We, we have intergenerational friendships in our families, and the Church is mimicking that by helping us to enter into that. And I see this on a weekly basis at my church, where, the kids come back from children's church and join us before communion in the service, and you can see the, the little four-year-olds coming, and they're, like, waving at the college students. [laughing]

Scott Rae: 11:19

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 11:19

[laughs]

Carmen Imes: 11:19

They're, like, so excited to see-

Sean McDowell: 11:21

Yeah

Carmen Imes: 11:21

... Their friends who are grown-ups, and I just delight in seeing those connections. That's not something that happens on campus in chapel. Chapel is wonderful in terms of spiritual formation, but it's m- it is limited in the way that it can walk with us. Chapel, the chapel team doesn't walk with you through the seasons of your life. If your grandpa dies- ... The chapel team isn't the one who's gonna walk with you through that. You need a church family. And for those who are, who are maybe not college students, but they feel like they're getting their spiritual content on YouTube, that is, a unidirectional way of learning. It might check the learning box, but there are so many other things that happen at church, including messy things, right? We end up with messy relationships, conflict between people, that we have to work through and learn to love one another across our differences. That's really important for us to learn how to do, and the fact that YouTube comment sections are so, can be so full of vitriol-

Scott Rae: 12:22

[laughs]

Carmen Imes: 12:22

... Is a testament to the fact that we have not learned how to have good conversations with each other and how to love one another across our differences, and I think that's probably the fruit of people disconnecting from community and just being online.

Sean McDowell: 12:36

... Chapels can be great. I still distinctly remember some chapels and the theme of it. I could tell you from four years at Biola, at least-

Carmen Imes: 12:44

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 12:44

... Probably half a dozen to a dozen that were eye-opening to me. I watch YouTube and listen to podcasts a lot, but the point is not that they're not bad, but they're limited.

Carmen Imes: 12:54

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 12:55

And they, it, you know, like, on YouTube, it's not only unidirectional, it's disembodied.

Carmen Imes: 13:00

Right.

Sean McDowell: 13:00

So the reason the comments are so vitriolic is you're not looking at somebody face to face.

Carmen Imes: 13:05

That's right. Right.

Sean McDowell: 13:06

Most people wouldn't say that-

Carmen Imes: 13:07

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 13:08

... If they were looking at somebody.

Carmen Imes: 13:09

Right.

Sean McDowell: 13:09

The church is meant to be embodied, and so those things aren't bad, but you might say the compass is church[chuckles] that's the base to interpret YouTube-

Carmen Imes: 13:18

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 13:18

... Not your church through the lens of some YouTube video-

Carmen Imes: 13:22

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 13:22

... Which sadly is happening more and more.

Carmen Imes: 13:24

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 13:25

Now, the title of your book is Becoming God's Family. I'm curious why you think the Bible uses the imagery of family, particularly siblings, brothers-

Carmen Imes: 13:34

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 13:34

... And sisters in Christ, to describe the church?

Carmen Imes: 13:37

Yeah. This is something I learned from our very own Joe Hellerman, from his book on the church- ... That has just really blown my mind. I didn't realize that in the first century, the strongest bond between any two people, the most intimate relationship, was considered the sibling relationship.

Sean McDowell: 13:56

Huh.

Carmen Imes: 13:56

I would have assumed that, you know, a marriage would be the most intimate relationship, but because of various dynamics in the first century, it- there was a deeper sense of loyalty with siblings. And so I think it's interesting that God chooses to use family language to talk about our relationship with him and with each other. If God is our Father, if we're praying to our Father in heaven, that makes all of us siblings, and if the sibling relationship is the strongest bond, then that means we need to reorganize our lives and our priorities to invest in one another, to show up for each other in hard times. There's a sense of commitment across differences, commitment through the seasons of life over the long haul. I think it's a- it makes a wonderful metaphor for what God wants to do, just because it's so, it's so defining of our identity. Our families are so central to our identity, and the Bible is calling us to reorient our sense of identity around Jesus.

Sean McDowell: 14:56

And I've gotta- I gotta pause on that because I think that's incredibly counterintuitive.

Carmen Imes: 15:01

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 15:02

Like, if you, I mean, you th- take Gen Z, I think family's in the top five. It's important to them, but clearly not number one. It could be our job.

Carmen Imes: 15:11

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 15:12

Today there's a lot of other things that can be the root of our identity.

Carmen Imes: 15:15

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 15:15

It could be our sexuality-

Carmen Imes: 15:17

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 15:17

... It could be our race, it could be a range of different things that become the most definitive characteristic.

Carmen Imes: 15:23

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 15:23

And of course, those can be a part of our experience, but to say the definitive most important relationship at the root of our identities when the Bible was written is siblings-

Carmen Imes: 15:35

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 15:35

... That's a transformative narrative for how we should think about the church.

Carmen Imes: 15:39

It is.

Sean McDowell: 15:39

So I've gotta pause and emphasize that-

Carmen Imes: 15:41

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 15:41

... Because frankly, I need to think about that a little bit more myself [chuckles]

Carmen Imes: 15:45

Yeah, yeah

Sean McDowell: 15:45

... As well, now that you say it.

Carmen Imes: 15:46

And, and there's a lot of people these days talking about chosen family, like, because our biological families can be so messy and fraught with different problems, that people are like, "I'm gonna choose a new family. I'm gonna choose new people to hang out with." And I think what sometimes happens with a chosen family is you gather together with people who think exactly like you do, and it becomes- ... A kind of echo chamber for like-minded people, and the church is not that. That's one of the things that makes the church like a family, is that we don't get to choose who we hang out with at church. It's open to whoever walks through that door, and they might not be people that we would've said, "Oh, hey, I wanna go hang out and have coffee with you." "I wanna do, like, let's go on a trip together."

Sean McDowell: 16:32

Yeah.

Carmen Imes: 16:32

But these are the people God has brought to this community, and so we need to develop bonds with each other, even if they're people we wouldn't have chosen. And I think we've all had that experience, probably, of like, being stuck with a family member that we would not have chosen. Like, "Okay, this is an awkward relationship," or, "This is fraught in some way."

Sean McDowell: 16:53

And by the way, it's important to think that we are that family member that some people think- [laughing]

Scott Rae: 16:58

Yes, exactly. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: 16:58

... They're stuck with.

Carmen Imes: 16:59

Fact. [laughing]

Sean McDowell: 16:59

So that's, that's a humbling thought we should all consider as well.

Carmen Imes: 17:03

That is a fact. [laughing]

Scott Rae: 17:04

But wait, but take that a little, a little deeper. What do you say to the, to the, I think, the really common priority that we make in a lot of our Christian circles about family first? You know-

Carmen Imes: 17:14

Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: 17:14

... Our relationship to God-

Carmen Imes: 17:15

Mm-hmm

Scott Rae: 17:15

... And then our relationship to our family sort of trumps everything else-

Carmen Imes: 17:19

Yeah

Scott Rae: 17:20

... Including our relationships with our quote, "spiritual siblings."

Carmen Imes: 17:25

Yes.

Scott Rae: 17:27

W-

Carmen Imes: 17:27

I've, I've been in some hot conversations online on this topic [chuckles] in recent days. And I think there's, there's something to be said here. You know, I've talked about how this message is radical for those of us from an individualist culture, where, you know, it's all about me and my self-actualization. To, so to say we belong to each other is disruptive of my goals, maybe. But I think what's really fascinating is that even in a collectivist culture, this is a radical message. Because what it's saying is, you aren't primarily defined by your biological family, you're defined by this new family. Like, your ultimate loyalty needs to be to the family of faith, and if push comes to shove, and you have to choose between your biological family and the family of faith, the family of faith comes first. And so I think this actually pushes back against some of the rhetoric I'm hearing right now about family first. It's not that we neglect our f- physical, biological families, but there can come a moment where there- a choice has to be made- Will I be loyal to these people, or will I follow Jesus at the cost of this relationship? And Jesus says he came to bring a sword to divide families, and I, I think we've all probably seen families divide over questions of faith.... You know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna follow Jesus, if you're gonna insist on a biblical sexual ethic, or if you're going to insist on, becoming a missionary, then we can't be, we can't be in relationship with each other.

Scott Rae: 19:01

Yeah, part of, part of the reason I ask this is, you know, in Joe Hellerman's book that you referred to, that-

Carmen Imes: 19:06

Yeah

Scott Rae: 19:06

... When the Church Was a Family.

Carmen Imes: 19:07

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 19:07

He's got, he's got some real specific examples- ... From his own family life-... About how they took in people from their church.

Carmen Imes: 19:16

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 19:16

And they sort of had the, they had almost had the status of adopted family members.

Carmen Imes: 19:22

Yeah, yeah. That's good.

Scott Rae: 19:22

And there were times when he put the interest of some of these folks ahead of the interest of his own kids. What... Is that, is that consistent with how you understand this?

Carmen Imes: 19:34

I think it is. And it's, it's a, it's a tough thing for us to w- to wrestle with or reckon with, like, how do I love both families well? And I think there is a cost to following Jesus, and sometimes that cost is not just a cost we're choosing, but our extended family members, you know, they ha- they are the recipients of the collateral of that. I remember when my husband and I decided to become missionaries in the Philippines, and we wrote a letter to our extended family members, to our parents and our siblings- ... To say, "We realize that our decision to follow Jesus to the Philippines is costing you something that you didn't decide freely." "Like, we're, we're choosing to go, and that means there won't be family gatherings with everyone present as much as there used to be, that our kids won't be able to grow up with your kids in the same way that they would have. That we won't be able to just pop in or, or help." And, and we recognize there is a cost to our family members that they didn't choose, and so we wanted to acknowledge that, but also say, "We believe God is asking us to do this, and He comes first."

Sean McDowell: 20:45

It, this feels like such a pressing question in the Church right now. Scott, you and I could do a full episode on this, I think. When do we, when do we divide? When do we decide-

Carmen Imes: 20:55

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 20:55

... The church family goes above biological family? Like, what does that actually look like? I haven't heard anybody really flesh that out.

Scott Rae: 21:01

Let me give, let me give an example of this.

Sean McDowell: 21:03

Yeah, do it.

Scott Rae: 21:04

You know, this was my- when my middle son[clears throat] and I, we were, we... He played a lot of basketball. I coached his team, and we went to, we went to a lot, a lot of tournaments out of town, and we had a lot, a lot of meals together.

Carmen Imes: 21:15

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 21:16

And I remember there was this one particular time when we were on a travel trip, and we were... I was really looking forward just to spending time with him. And we were over a meal, and there was a guy standing outside the restaurant who we knew, I knew needed a meal.

Carmen Imes: 21:32

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 21:32

And I asked him to join us. And I knew that it was gonna disrupt the time that I had planned with my son.

Carmen Imes: 21:39

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 21:40

But years later, he re- he still remembers that episode- ... About how we took this guy in, fed him a meal, you know, treated him with dignity, had com- had conversation with him. You know- ... Treated him like a person, not just somebody- ... To be fed.

Carmen Imes: 21:56

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 21:56

But years later, he still remembered that-

Carmen Imes: 21:59

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 21:59

... As something really powerful. And, and an exam- an example that, you know, said to him, "M- you know, maybe I'm not always the most important thing." Uh-

Carmen Imes: 22:09

It is important for our kids to know that. And I feel like as missionaries, because we were far from home, we experienced, we were recipients of that kind of hospitality over and over again, as other missionaries invited us into their homes and into their families, and we spent holidays together. And, and there was one point in our life where we had spent more Christmases with our mission team than we had, you know, our kids had, than with their biological family, with their grandparents, but we became like family. And I think that is actually what God is calling us to do, is to become like family with other followers of Jesus.

Sean McDowell: 22:43

See, I think this raises questions you and I have to, have to flesh out in a future episode because there's a difference between with your son being missional towards those who need a meal-

Scott Rae: 22:53

Right

Sean McDowell: 22:53

... And sacrificing, not really sacrificing, but time with your son, with a literal stranger. You don't know if he's a believer or not.

Scott Rae: 22:59

True.

Carmen Imes: 22:59

Yeah, that's true.

Sean McDowell: 23:00

When do we sacrifice for the Church with our biological family?

Carmen Imes: 23:04

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 23:05

That's where we have to really figure some of those questions out.

Carmen Imes: 23:09

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 23:09

And I think it'd be helpful, but we can come back to that. You say, quote, Carmen- "The calling of the Church is not to help each of us live our best life now."

Scott Rae: 23:19

Darn. [laughing]

Carmen Imes: 23:20

[laughing]

Sean McDowell: 23:20

Why- Right? It's like you're just-

Scott Rae: 23:22

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 23:22

... You're pushing on these narratives that we all want.

Carmen Imes: 23:25

[laughing]

Sean McDowell: 23:26

Why not? And specifically, what is the calling of the Church?

Carmen Imes: 23:30

Yeah. Again, self-actualization is not the main goal of church involvement or the Christian life, or even it should not be my main goal. Self-actualization is something that the, that the West has said matters more than anything else. Like, "I'm gonna get what I want at any cost." And the Church is calling us to lay down our rights, to lay down our desires for the sake of others. And so Christ calls us to sacrifice on others' behalf. He calls us to serve. He, he calls us into inconvenience. And so what is the mission of the Church? I would describe our mission as a, we're a community of people, multigenerational, multicultural family, who gather to wait for Christ's return. This is, I think, the m- the most pr- the primary vocation that we have, is to wait. We are people who gather together in recognition that we can't solve the world's problems, that we are waiting for the one who can- ... And that He said He would come back, and we collectively recognize that that's the most important thing ahead. And while we're waiting, we hear the Word preached, we gather in worship, and we participate in God's work in the world together. And that- ... I mean, there's more to it than that, but that's probably the starting place- ... For what the Church is.

Scott Rae: 24:56

... So Carmen, you've, you mentioned a couple times that the church is this great place where we can, you know, sort of put ourselves aside. You also mentioned that it's a messy place.

Carmen Imes: 25:08

Mm-hmm.

Scott Rae: 25:09

So how do you help people navigate the messiness of that?

Carmen Imes: 25:13

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 25:13

And sort of, maybe a related question, you know, when would you advise people to leave the church that they're in?

Carmen Imes: 25:20

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 25:20

Great question.

Carmen Imes: 25:22

So I do have a section in the book on reasons to leave a church, and I think, you know, I could picture some readers being like, "All right, let me see. Do I..."[chuckles]

Sean McDowell: 25:31

[chuckles]

Carmen Imes: 25:31

... You know, " 'Cause I'm ready to leave." And I- my list is pretty short. It, I offer just three reasons to leave a church, not that this would be an exhaustive list.

Sean McDowell: 25:42

Sure.

Carmen Imes: 25:42

But if there is abuse happening in your church, and it's being covered up by leadership rather than dealt with, then that's not a good church to be part of.

Sean McDowell: 25:51

And this is spiritual, emotional-

Carmen Imes: 25:53

Physical, would-

Sean McDowell: 25:54

Physical.

Carmen Imes: 25:54

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 25:55

Sexual should be the obvious one.

Carmen Imes: 25:56

Obviously.

Sean McDowell: 25:57

But yeah.

Carmen Imes: 25:57

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 25:58

Okay.

Carmen Imes: 25:59

If there's a form of leadership that's very authoritarian, instead of inviting all believers to bring their gifts to serve the body, if it's, if it's, c- the kind of leader that absorbs all the roles into himself and won't let anyone else participate, a kind of highly controlling version- ... Of Christianity, I think it's time to go. And if the Bible has been set aside, if the church is no longer saying, "This is... You know, the buck stops here. This is the Word of God, and we're, we're living by this," then it's time to leave. But beyond that, there are just a myriad of other reasons that people leave that I think are unnecessary, that we should persevere through our differences, that it's okay to not think exactly the same as your pastor on things. It's okay to have people who have different priorities than you do. And I'm encouraging people to stick it out through differences. But Scott, you asked about the messiness- ... Of church, and I would say we live in a time, you know, the- for the past 10 years, there's been a lot of attention to abuse in the church and cover-up of abuse, and so I didn't want to have this kind of rosy picture of the church, like, "It's all great," because it isn't all great everywhere. And so part of, part of my goal was to show how the Bible addresses things like abuse in community. And so I begin in Genesis with the story of Abraham and Sarah, who, acquire an Egyptian slave and then mistreat her so that she runs away. And I find it really powerful that the Lord does not show up to Abraham's tent and pack him- pat him on the back and say, "You, you know, you were a, you were a man. You did the right thing. You just show her who's boss." No, He shows up- ... In the wilderness with Hagar. He offers her food and water. He gives her hope for the future and a sense of, like, her worth is not defined by this abusive couple that has been mistreating her. And I think that's a really important starting point- ... So that we can speak to anyone who's been hurt by the church or marginalized, by Christian leaders, that God is actually, seeking you in the wilderness, and He wants to minister to you.

Sean McDowell: 28:21

Scott, I have, I have one last question-

Scott Rae: 28:22

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 28:22

... If I can.

Scott Rae: 28:23

Go for it.

Sean McDowell: 28:24

If you, what would your advice be to somebody who suspects that the Bible's being set aside? Which I think-

Carmen Imes: 28:31

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 28:31

... What you mean by that is authority or essential teachings.

Carmen Imes: 28:35

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 28:36

Or they suspect there's spiritual abuse.

Carmen Imes: 28:39

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 28:39

How should they go about navigating this, and how should they not go about navigating this within the church?

Carmen Imes: 28:47

Yeah. Oh, there's all sorts of tools at our disposal these days, aren't there?

Sean McDowell: 28:51

Yes, there are. [chuckles]

Carmen Imes: 28:51

Like, you can just, like, trumpet things publicly, social- use social media, take to the airwaves to try to, bring attention to it. And I do think there is a time to use the airwaves, to bring- ... Attention to abuse that's not being dealt with. But I think, you know, Matthew 18 talks about going, face-to-face with people, and I think if we have a posture of curiosity and generosity towards those we disagree with, it, That can be helpful because sometimes what happens is not that the Bible's been set aside, but that someone's coming to a different interpretation of it. And I think we have a tendency to interpret anyone who has a different interpretation than mine is a heretic, and we use really strong language to dismiss them or say, "You're, you don't hold to Scripture." And I think what's important to recognize is that there is a possibility of different views that arise from this same book, and we can have a shared commitment to Scripture and form different conclusions. And I think as much as possible, if there is that shared commitment to Scripture, that we should try to hang on through our differences and work them out.

Sean McDowell: 30:00

I think it, especially when we talk about Matthew 18, you know, this is a brother or sister who sinned against one another.

Carmen Imes: 30:07

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 30:07

It gets messy when you're talking about leadership-

Carmen Imes: 30:10

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 30:10

... And other dynamics. I don't know that it perfectly-

Carmen Imes: 30:12

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 30:12

... Maps on.

Carmen Imes: 30:13

It's true.

Sean McDowell: 30:13

But I think that the principle is, my dad always taught me, he's like, "Give the benefit of the doubt."

Carmen Imes: 30:18

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 30:19

"Go to the source. Do your homework first."

Carmen Imes: 30:22

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 30:22

"Don't gossip."

Carmen Imes: 30:23

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 30:24

"See if you can reconcile,"

Carmen Imes: 30:25

Mm-hmm

Sean McDowell: 30:26

... "like, before you do something[chuckles] public and start gossiping-

Carmen Imes: 30:28

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 30:28

... And drawing other people in-

Carmen Imes: 30:30

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 30:30

... Find out first and hear different perspectives."

Carmen Imes: 30:33

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 30:33

And sadly, that doesn't often happen.

Carmen Imes: 30:36

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 30:36

I ask people, I say, "You know what? Like, put yourself in your pastor's position. Think about how many complaints he's getting, how many people, and how much sideways energy this can take for a pastor."

Carmen Imes: 30:48

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 30:48

"Approach a pastor, if you're concerned, in a way you would want somebody to approach you."

Carmen Imes: 30:53

Yes, yes.

Sean McDowell: 30:54

Like, these are just basic principles that I wish more people [chuckles] would carry out when they have concerns.

Scott Rae: 31:01

Well, I will give you the, that last question.

Sean McDowell: 31:04

All right!

Scott Rae: 31:04

And, uh-

Sean McDowell: 31:05

I'll take it.

Scott Rae: 31:05

This is great stuff, Carmen. Thank you so much for being with us. I want to recommend to our listeners and viewers your book, Becoming God's Family. It's the third, actually the third of a series.

Carmen Imes: 31:15

Yep.

Scott Rae: 31:15

And I think, I see you've brought the other two as well, so.

Carmen Imes: 31:18

I've got the other two here, yeah.

Scott Rae: 31:18

You show Being in God's Image and Bearing God's Name.

Carmen Imes: 31:21

Yep.

Scott Rae: 31:21

Both... It's a, it's a wonderful trilogy. You will learn so much about biblical theology- ... How God's plan, how God's revelation of Himself and His people unfolds- ... Through biblical history. It's great stuff, and appreciate the, particularly this one on the application to the church.

Carmen Imes: 31:39

Thank you so much.

Scott Rae: 31:40

This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, with offering programs in Southern California and online. In fact, we've got more master's and bachelor's programs in apologetics, philosophy, Old and New Testament, theology, marriage and family therapy, pastoral ministry, spiritual formation. I think I've got them all.

Sean McDowell: 32:02

Pretty close. [chuckles]

Scott Rae: 32:02

Most, most of them. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. Please feel free to email us if you have comments or questions. We love, we love the questions that you're sending in to us. Send by thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation with Dr. Carmen Imes, give us a rating on your podcast app. Please share it with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]