Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture

The Cost of Ambition (with Miroslav Volf)

• Miroslav Volf, Sean McDowell

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While God has made us to be ambitious, there can be a deep spiritual cost for striving to be better than others. Miroslav Volf is one of the leading public theologians. In this episode, based on his book "The Cost of Ambition," Dr. Volf explains how the teachings of Jesus and Paul offer a means for how we can aim for excellence without being plagued by our own sense of inferiority. 

Miroslav Volf is the Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology at Yale Divinity School and is the founder and director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture. He was educated in his native Croatia, the United States, and Germany, earning doctoral and post-doctoral degrees (with highest honors) from the University of Tübingen, Germany. He has written or edited more than 20 books, over 100 scholarly articles, and his work has been featured in the Washington Post, Christianity Today, Christian Century, Sojourners, and several other outlets, including NPR's Speaking of Faith (now On Being with Krista Tippett) and Public Television’s Religion and Ethics Newsweekly. 

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Sean McDowell:

[upbeat music] Miroslav Volf is one of the leading public theologians of our day. He is a professor at Yale University and the author of a new book, The Cost of Ambition. Dr. Volf, it's a treat to have you on. I read a lot of books, and I'll tell you, not only was your book interesting, but it was also personally convicting on multiple levels, and we're gonna get into that. I'm guessing that's a little bit of your motivation, is to change the way people think and ultimately shape the way they live. But I'm really curious, why did you write this book now?

Miroslav Volf:

That's a very good question. First, thank you for having me on your show.

Sean McDowell:

Sure.

Miroslav Volf:

And mostly I write books that move me- ... That I'm interested myself. And that could be books about which, topics of which, about which I'm excited, or it can be kinds of books that wag their fingers- [laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... At me. And this is one of those finger-wagging books.

Sean McDowell:

Okay, okay.

Miroslav Volf:

[laughing] That, that I observed, certain tendencies in myself, but then I recognized that- ... These are not just my individual peculiarities, that they are- ... These are features, actually, of the broader culture in which we, in which we live. And the, and that was, that was enough of a motivation for me to, to write it. And it was connected also partly with, some lectures that I have, uh- ... Delivered. It, it was preparation for these, lectures in a small way.

Sean McDowell:

So is this something that's been in the back of your mind for your life? You've just thought about, you know, comparing myself with others, ambition, or was there, like, an experience that just hit you that's like, "Man, I've got to write something on ambition because this is something that maybe God's put on my heart," or something like that? Like, what precipitated it?

Miroslav Volf:

So I think [chuckles] think it was observation, mainly of our Yale students. Students who are very bright. They have are at Yale because they've been at the top of their high schools.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And they come to Yale, and then suddenly they become one of the 5,000 equally gifted-

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... Presumably equally gifted, students, uh-... And they're lost. What gave purpose in their life, what gave, a kind of the pride to their life, was that they were at the top. They're better than anybody else around them, than most people around them. They come, and they lose that sense, and then question is, "Who am I?""How do I cope, with this? Where do I, stand?" And, it dawned on me then that in many ways, they don't- ... Have some kind of objective standpoint or stand where they-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Can stand and say, irrespective of where the other person is, "This is who I am, and this is a good thing, and I can celebrate, uh- ... That." And then, I was invited to do, a lecture for, I think it was second Congress of Christians in Sports. And I thought, "What am I gonna-

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... Speak to these people about? So why don't

Sean McDowell:

Interesting

Miroslav Volf:

... Undermine [laughing] one of the basic structural elements of, the, practice in which they, engage?" And so I spoke- ... About striving for superiority- ... And, how the impact that it has, a value that it has, and of course, it has huge reputational value-... Huge monetary-

Sean McDowell:

For sure

Miroslav Volf:

... Value, obviously. But my question was, what's the human value-... Of striving for superiority and actually of being, superior? So that's how, I-

Sean McDowell:

Yeah

Miroslav Volf:

... Got the ball rolling.

Sean McDowell:

It makes sense. Well, there's definitely a prophetic voice in this for our culture and I think for individuals. I could easily see somebody right now going, "Okay, Dr. Volf, maybe in sports for the second people that compete there, maybe the 5,000 lucky students who get into Yale..." But you have a line in your book in which you say,"Striving for superiority is everywhere." And when I read that, and some of the examples that you gave, I can't unsee that now. [chuckles] Now I literally just see it everywhere in my life-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, yeah

Sean McDowell:

... And in our culture. So maybe take it out of sports. That seems like an obvious place-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... Where people are striving-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... For superiority. We get it at Yale that it would be that way, but how is it just around us, kind of the air we breathe in the American culture and beyond?

Miroslav Volf:

Well, it's in sports, from, three years old-

Sean McDowell:

Fair enough

Miroslav Volf:

... All the way, above. And it's in education-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Not just at the level, of Yale, but in most, classrooms, of most schools, the striving for superiority is present. More broadly, striving superiority is certainly a mark of the economic activity. It's in political-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Domains. Some of the most, prominent examples of striving for superiority and boasting in superiority we find- ... In the political, uh-... Domain. I think it's, it's more in culture more generally, and it's somehow seeped into hearts of most of us. I think one of the precipitating- ... Events was also, I travel quite a bit, so I go through, O'Hare Airport, and as-

Sean McDowell:

Me, too [laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... As you know, there are these stairs that you need to climb-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Escalators that go up and down, and moving walkways. And, since I've, come to, at one point, a decision that I, whenever I can, I absolutely will not use-

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... Either moving walkways or escalators. I will walk. So I find myself one day, I'm, I'm walking these 60 stairs, up, and there is this mass of people, going next to me, not at the faster speed than I am going, but nonetheless, they're, they're there being carried, carried up, and I find myself thinking to myself, "I'm a kind of a little bit of a superior-

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... Kind of human being [laughing] because I'm burning my calories, and they're- ... Burning fossil fuels." And so there I go into this whole sense of how I'm better, and I think I stopped myself in the middle of it and said, "What an insane thing-"... For you to think. You have no idea- ... Who these people are. You don't, have no idea- ... What made them go, most of them. And pretty soon, a few, a year or so, later, I got bad back, and suddenly I was one of those escalators. [laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing] That's funny.

Miroslav Volf:

[laughing]

Sean McDowell:

I love that.

Miroslav Volf:

But, but it, in some ways- ... It is there, in neighborhoods, it is there in whatever- ... We as human beings do, and it has been b- with us for quite some time. I think what's different- ... Is that when I started thinking about this and maybe saying something, because I didn't feel that people were saying much about it, I looked for contemporary literature on the topic, and it's very hard to find anything. I had to look back to the 19th century, end of 19th century. I had to look back to the 17th, century and- ... And 18th century, and then find robust debates about that very, that very-

Sean McDowell:

That's interesting

Miroslav Volf:

... Issue. It was, it was a, it was a vital thing, and people saw... Even Adam Smith, for instance, saw in it a kind of, human, human excellence undermining, a vice. And you wouldn't expect that necessarily from somebody- ... Like Adam Smith. And so I thought, "Oh, it needs to be, it needs to be revived, that tradition." "I need to mine it in part, and I need to go, especially in the sources of the Christian, uh-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Tradition, Christian faith, and the Bible, as well as to some of the thinkers who thought along those lines."

Sean McDowell:

And we'll get into some of those, Kierkegaard and Paul and, of course, Jesus. But what you wrote at the beginning, where you're walking in Chicago O'Hare, I've been there so many times, I can picture that in my mind.

Miroslav Volf:

[laughing]

Sean McDowell:

And then you talk about, you know, a neighbor has a car that's maybe a little nicer. I started to think, "It's everywhere. Oh, I've got nicer shoes than that person. I'm eating healthier than this person. I'm going to bed earlier or later than this person." It's ever present.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah.

Sean McDowell:

It's all over the place. Now, the point that you make is that you say, "Des- striving to be better than others is damaging to us and damaging to the world." So let's start with us.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell:

How does that hurt me? How does that hurt you? How does that hurt individuals when they strive to be better than others?

Miroslav Volf:

Well, so if you are in this business of striving for superiority, you are striving for superiority in comparison with others.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And no matter at what point of that scale, if there is some kind of a scale-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... From GOAT, [laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

Greatest of all time, to-

Sean McDowell:

Yep

Miroslav Volf:

... The worst possible [laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

... You are, mostly there is somebody above you and somebody, below you.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And striving for superiority is, you're kind of clawing your way up to be better than somebody else, and while you're doing that, you have first inferiorized the person who is below you now. Right? You have notched him down. But there's... The, the thirst has not been satisfied because there's somebody above you.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And you are now continuing to go. And now think of trajectory of your inner, reflection about, yourself. You kind of, loathe yourself, and then you tap yourself on the shoulders, and you start again a little bit loathing yourself, and again, tapping yours- self on- ... The shoulders. What does that do to the sense of who we are? Who am I? Am I this loser, winner, loser, winner, person or-

Sean McDowell:

Good question

Miroslav Volf:

... What am, what am, what am I? How do I get kind of sense of more stable core, that it isn't constantly undermined, not by somebody else, but by m- by me? I am, in a sense, inferiorizing myself, former self, right?

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

So that I can never find what one might describe as a rest in where I am- ... And with myself. What happens when I can be at home with myself-... But I'm always somewhere other than at home? I'm always one notch above the home that I- ... Inhabit. It seems to me that undermines a lot of our sense of self-worth. It undermines a lot of our sense of well-being, of a kind of contentment. And contentment, not in a some kind of, static way, but contentment with- ... With, "Okay, this is who I am. I can look at myself in the mirror and say yes to myself." And I think that fundamental yes to myself is so crucial to our lives, and we so rarely say it.

Sean McDowell:

That makes sense in terms of my sense of identity, my self-image, who I am, my ability to rest in who God created me to be, as opposed to what people say about me-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... What I do, et cetera.

Miroslav Volf:

Yep.

Sean McDowell:

Societally speaking, you gave the example of striving s- for superiority when it came to things like slavery. Like, people of a certain race, namely white people-

Miroslav Volf:

Sure

Sean McDowell:

... Thinking they are superior-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... And hence, just dehumanizing Black people.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah.

Sean McDowell:

One example. How else does striving for superiority affect society as a whole?

Miroslav Volf:

Well, if you, if you think about, effects of that, of the ambition, most people these days think about, "Oh, that stimulates progress in many domains." our performance in sports, our performance in economy, our performance anywhere else, is going to be better if you're competing with other people.... And I don't want to necessarily discard that that's completely- ... False. There is some of that actually happens. But at the same time, what happens if I, if I'm consistently dissatisfied with, clothes that I wear- ... With car that I drive, with friends that I might have? How about if I apply striving for superiority in the domain of my family relations? And then I compare my child to some other child, and I find my child wanting, and my child feels that I find them wanting. A very extreme example, of that, I don't know if, your listeners have seen Adolescent, this Netflix-

Sean McDowell:

Oh

Miroslav Volf:

... Series.

Sean McDowell:

Maybe some have, yeah

Miroslav Volf:

... This very-

Sean McDowell:

Yeah

Miroslav Volf:

... Very popular.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

At the, at the very beginning, you discover that this very troubled- ... Adolescent boy, in his childhood, had a father, and father at the end is very remorseful for what he has done, but had a father who want him to be this more sporty guy. And, and he was a kid who liked to draw. The drawings, he would put them in the, in playing soccer-... In the, in the goal, and he would squirm when the ball was coming at him. And, and the kid could see that his father was displeased with what he was- ... Doing, in the sense that he looked down on the kid. Had the kid been- ... Top scorer, the great, soccer player, this would be, it'd be fantastic, right? So, so you see how the effects- ... Of that are not just on me. The effects are on everybody who might help me make feel better about[laughing] myself.

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

And you know, you see that also in the fields of politics. You know, you have everything has to be somehow redound to your own glory, and if it doesn't redound to your electability and to your, to your glory, you kind of diss it. You, you kind of push it, push it away. And, it has, negative consequences, for so many, for so many people. So I, I think it's, it's, it's pervasive in its all domains- ... And, it can have a devastating impact, on others.

Sean McDowell:

So the title is The Cost of Ambition. Is your... Clarify your argument for me. Is your argument that ambition in itself is costly and negative, or ambition done a certain way is costly and negative? Is there a way to redeem ambition-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, that-

Sean McDowell:

... As you see it?

Miroslav Volf:

... That's a very good, very good question, and maybe the title isn't, isn't the happiest. But on the other hand, the key to the book lies in its subtitle, which is-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Do you may want to read it, or

Sean McDowell:

I'll read, I'll read it for us.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell:

How to make- How Striving to Be Better Than Others Makes Us Worse.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah. So, so striving, 'cause striving-... Is, for me, not problematic at all. That's what we human beings, are, and it's a good that we are- ... That. What I find problematic is striving to be better than others. Again, I want to distinguish between being better than others and striving for some kind of excellence. So you might have, in certain domains, a benchmark.

Sean McDowell:

Great distinction.

Miroslav Volf:

And you may say to yourself, "This is what I want to achieve." Maybe that benchmark is tailored to who you are, your gifts and capabilities. Maybe that's some kind of objective standard. Whatever that might be. But now you have a, you have a goal that you have-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Set, that you find valuable, and you're striving to achieve that goal. I th- say that's absolutely fantastic. That's what we should do. In so many domains in our lives, we should strive for certain kind of, excellence. But when striving for excellence becomes striving to be better than others, that's where the problems, come in, and better than others is suddenly decoupled from any objective worth. The worth is simply somebody-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Who's better at something that I find important than I am myself. Whether that, whether that is true value or not often becomes marginal. The important is the feeling- ... That I'm better than somebody else-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Whatever that is, and if I can't be better than somebody else in this, I'll try to be in this, and then I pat myself in the sol- on the shoulders.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And then I devalue that in which that other person is better than I am, and up the thing in which I am better- ... Than they are, right? So, so that, and in, in many ways, that can skew also our own, not just, our own self-image, as we talked earlier, but it can, it can actually work against, uh- ... Our true betterment. Because if I try to imitate somebody else and be better than they i, in the domain in which they are good, it may not be my forte. My forte b- might lie in something else, and therefore, I might be better simply to forget about them- ... Where they are. And I will excel in something that, in which I'm strong, and I'll be happy- ... Wherever I am, in the domain in which they seem to be better than myself.... Warren Buffett has made this- ... Part of his, investment policy. He thinks that if you compete, against somebody on somebody else's turf and in somebody else's, domain where they are excelling, you may find yourself actually, in a losing battle. You better find your niche and your thing, and try to be better every day than you were yesterday, which is, in my book, striving for excellence rather than striving, for superiority.

Sean McDowell:

So in some ways, what defines good ambition from bad ambition might be how we define success. Is success being the best that I can be, being a better person, as opposed to being better than somebody else?

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah.

Sean McDowell:

How I define success, is going to shape how I assess myself, how I assess other people, and it seems like our culture defines success as, like you said, the GOAT, the greatest of all time. Are you better than this person?

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah.

Sean McDowell:

And we rank one another. But if we define success differently- ... Then it seems the problem of striving and ambition fades away. Is that fair?

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, it may, maybe fade away, fades away might be, might be, if we succeed, it will-

Sean McDowell:

If we succeed at it

Miroslav Volf:

... It will, it will fade away. And I, I think the difficulty that we find our, in which we are in the more modern cultures, is that increasingly, objective standards of value have disappeared, right? So you don't have a, common moral frame- ... In which things, in which- ... Our agency takes, b- takes place. And that was, I think, first time I read about it, was observation by, Alain Ehrenberg, in, the book called Weariness of the Self. And he's asking the question, It's a kind of cultural history of depression. And he's asking the question- Why was, in the mid-20th century, a kind of neurosis, was signature malady? A psychological malady, and why- ... In the late 20th century, beginning of 21st century, it, is depression, the psychological, defining psychological, malady?

Sean McDowell:

It's a great question.

Miroslav Volf:

And so it's, he writes this cultural history, and I don't want to necessarily- ... Repeat, and neither can I remember his entire argument, but one of the elements is that there is a kind of a loss of objective standards.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And so standards that we have-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Are always moving standards that are set by performance, of others. More we live now, I'm invoking another thinker, Byung-Chul Han-... Korean, philosopher, who lives, I think, in Germany, writes these small, books that are really worth, I find, worth reading. More we live in what he calls performance society. The more we are competing and comparing-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... And the worse the situation becomes for us because we can find no comfort in a kind of, resting in certain objective norms. Now, for myself, I think that even those objective norms, say, moral norms, or whatever other norms are, will, in the end, turn out problematic. You can see that in the biblical traditions, where there is a God's moral law.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And performance of that moral law can be the source of a sense of superiority that I have, over other people, Pharisee and Publican, and, uh- ... Publicans? How do you pronounce that name? Publican,

Sean McDowell:

The-

Miroslav Volf:

... In the biblical story, the-

Sean McDowell:

You have the Pharisees, and you have the Sadducees, and the Herodians.

Miroslav Volf:

No, no, but the, but the, but the, there are two guys that came to pray. I can't pronounce English word.

Sean McDowell:

Okay.

Miroslav Volf:

But one is the Pharisee, and one is the sinner, uh-

Sean McDowell:

Oh, okay

Miroslav Volf:

... Who is a Public, Publician or whatever its, name in English. Apologies for my, limited vocabulary. And the one comes, the Pharisee comes to God and- ... And has, "I thank you, God, for-... Who I am and what I do. You have created," and so forth, right?

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

I'm paraphrasing.

Sean McDowell:

Sure. Sure.

Miroslav Volf:

And the other one beats himself in the chest and asks- ... For forgiveness- ... Of God, and, uh- ... And Jesus then asks the question- "Which one of these-... Goes away justified, forgiven?" And the obviously answer is not the self-righteous one. And sometimes you can think that self-righteousness is, can be worse- ... Than a pride in one's own performance. And that's why you have it in biblical traditions, in Jesus, you have it also in Apostle Paul, kind of a heavy dose of critique of striving superior- for superiority- ... Within the frame of moral order. It's only now become much more prevalent, that striving, because performance, feeds it. There are, there are no other ways to compare oneself,

Sean McDowell:

What might be some of the reasons that somebody, strives for superiority so much? Cultural reasons, personal reasons? You don't get into this a ton in the book. You kind of hint at a few things that might motivate people, but what could be some of the core reasons why somebody would be so just committed to striving for superiority?

Miroslav Volf:

... Well, for, in many instances, it's monetarily, um- ... Advantageous-

Sean McDowell:

Okay

Miroslav Volf:

... In the society. In other instances, it is- ... Reputationally, advantageous. You count as someone. If you're a Messi, then, every kid, in Africa knows who you are- ... And in the rest of the world, as well. So clearly there are these, advantages that we, that, that we have, a kind of a bragging rights that we, that, that we get, by being s- by being superior. And we thrive on the, sense of being better than, other people are. And so the question then, for me becomes, w- there are such propensities that each one of us, has. If we don't stack very well, we feel dejected, because, our worth before other- in the eyes of the others, is assessed and judged in how we stack.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

People go for the winner. The loser, even if you are second, people don't talk to you, right? Or let's say-

Sean McDowell:

[chuckles]

Miroslav Volf:

... In a competitions or, immediately, the in, the microphone goes to the, to the winner, right? So, so obviously there are many-... Rewards that we have, and our societies are such that, that this is, this is there, and this is there from the beginning. I think first story where we have striving for superiority or dejectedness because- ... Superiority that we had been, kind of erased, by an act of God's, God's judge- God's, assessment, is story of Cain and Abel. And it's, it must be r- have been- ... Really powerful sense of loss of the status of being superior when it results in first fratricide. We feel that, in a very deep, kind of visceral way, and, and it's not a very easy thing for us to tame, a bit. And I'm, I'm very, conscious of being relatively, modest in way I formulate-... This, because this is, this is part of who we are, and it doesn't make us very pretty if we give way to it fully. We, we do better when we try to engage in spiritual exercises in order to, learn how to be more humble.

Sean McDowell:

I appreciate that you drew out, at the beginning of the book, how much in the Bible, it's just you see the striving for superiority like a golden thread that goes through the scriptures. It's in Cain and Abel. It's clearly in the story of Job. His friends seem superior to him. We can see it in the example of the apostles wanting to be[chuckles] superior to one another.

Miroslav Volf:

Yep. Yep.

Sean McDowell:

It's in Revelation. We see it at the end, like just-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... It's all over the place, and we can't miss it. So in one sense, it's the oldest sin in the book. We see it in Cain and Abel, you mentioned, one of the oldest, and yet it's more particularly prevalent today. Is that because of technology? Is that because of social media? What are the factors that you think make it that much more pressing in our cultural moment?

Miroslav Volf:

I think it's, it's also in the particular cultural moments we find ourselves today, is certainly what you're describing, social media or in general, we can now compare ourselves with anyone, anywhere. When you had a very small, domains-

Sean McDowell:

That's a good point

Miroslav Volf:

... Where you lived in the confines- ... Of a, of a village, you kind of... It's like in the family. You may struggle, but you pretty much come to realize, get to know the other people, come to realize who's superior, who's, who's not, and you live- ... Live with it and around it. Unless you are like Cain, who just cannot stand, and there are-

Sean McDowell:

Yeah

Miroslav Volf:

... More exceptions than the rule, in- ... In some sense. Whereas that's no longer the case. Basically, the field is completely open, but, what Thomas Friedman used to, used to call flat world, which he praised-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... But that praise of a flat world, whether it was flat, or not, in many ways, it's at least it, I'm not sure, but it's accessible. You can see everywhere what's, what, what's going on, and therefore, you compare yourself, in a sense, more. And then we can organize many domains of our lives around competitive, endeavors. That, but that politics, is such, and we don't curtail it by limiting, say, time, accord- in which, elect- the competition for votes can take place. Some countries, do. Economy is there. Sports have become a signature feature of-

Sean McDowell:

For sure

Miroslav Volf:

... Of life and define culturally, defining. So education- ... Is organized in the same kind of a- ... Kind of a way, and it's become a, you know, you start educating your kid before he, before the kid was born, in some crazy sense, right?

Sean McDowell:

Yeah.

Miroslav Volf:

Everything's being organized around this little, a little thing- ... To progress and make sure that the neighbors don't, kid doesn't progress more... No, not quite. That's bad. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell:

Of course. Do you think there's a connection between the growth of striving to be superior and a secular worldview that doesn't ground human value intrinsically in what we are and who we are, as opposed to what we do? Like, you think there's a connection between those two? And of course, I'm not-... Saying all Christians have this right and secular-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, yeah

Sean McDowell:

-people don't. But is there a worldview connection that makes this so prescient in this moment, you think?

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, I think in some ways, in some the ways there is, because also loss- ... Of these stable values is connected with the loss of the kind of religious frame, uh- ... In which to, which to have those, values. But, but also there is a kind of loss, of not simply, of valuing what we do, which would be, a certain form of meritocracy, right?

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

But, but, a lack of awareness that meritocracy or meritocratic striving can be equally not just problematic, but in many ways, meritocratic striving can be, can be, can be based on illusion. In the sense that I often ascribe merit to myself-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... For what, to, for things to which many other people have contributed a great deal. For instance, entrance into, into universities.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

It's on the basis of merit. It's especially if you're talking about, schools that, that are highly competitive.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

So, and you can say, "Well, the, they should be on the, on the basis of merit," but what counts as merit is a certain, performance on-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Standardized test or whatever other metric-

Sean McDowell:

Sure

Miroslav Volf:

... Is being, is being used. But now, if you, if you are a child, of a very rich person, they might spend $10 million-

Sean McDowell:

[chuckles]

Miroslav Volf:

... On you from the day you were born to the day you-

Sean McDowell:

That's right

Miroslav Volf:

... Take those tests, and you have me- you have merited, acceptance into that, university. And I say, "Well, wait a second. How's that-... Merit of the kid, if so much has been invested?" why are we making judgments simply on the, on the performance, then some kind of standardized-

Sean McDowell:

Yeah, that's right

Miroslav Volf:

... Without taking into account, what makes that performance, kind of possible? And equally, too, is if I simply ascribe to myself in any endeavor, a certain value for what I have achieved, but I don't step back and ask, "Who is it that all contributed for that value to be instantiated- ... For me to be better in some ways than somebody else?" I'm, I'm basing my judgments on illusion that it is-... My desert, that I deserve that, rather than on the reality that, oh, genes played quite a bit of a role, but then the parents, who raised you-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... But then the school system, where you were. And, and you can kind of start listing.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

And once you start listing, how far do I go? Just to my parents or further down? Uh-

Sean McDowell:

Interesting.

Miroslav Volf:

And, and once you start thinking of it this way, you realize that, merit- ... And ascription of oneself, the merit, might be problematic. I think Apostle Paul does that.

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm.

Miroslav Volf:

It's amazing-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... In this one passage, three rhetorical questions-... To debunk just this kind of mode of thinking- ... Which is, I thought, absolutely extraordinary.

Sean McDowell:

Let's talk about some of the thinkers that you mention in your book. We won't go into depth. You talk about Milton and some others, but Kierkegaard-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... Shows up. What's maybe one or two takeaways that Kierkegaard makes that can help us think biblically and maybe theologically about ambition?

Miroslav Volf:

I- one of my favorite, lines in Kierkegaard is when he talks about King Solomon. King Solomon is the great king, the greatest of Israelite-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... Kings. Great in wisdom, great in his, in endeavors, the wisest of all, is absolutely, splendid, as a king. He stands for the, at the top, maybe with King David, but somehow that there is something even more shine- shinier about Solomon. And then, [lips smack] Kierkegaard comments about this story, that Jesus or teaching, that Jesus did, about, about worry- ... And about lilies in the field-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... And, how they do not, worry. And, each one of them is clothed, in clothes that are more beautiful than Solomon was, right? And then he, Kierkegaard kind of thinks about this and says, "Well, wait a second, lilies don't have any clothes." They are just lilies, and they look- ... Very beautiful, and they're more beautiful than Solomon in all his glory. That's the- ... That's the phrase. And then Kierkegaard says, "Well, wait a second. That means that hu- he's a human being. A human being is more valuable, and in some more- ... More beautiful than the, than the lily." Inference from that he makes, Solomon is more glorious-... In his naked humanity than he is with all the royal regalia. [laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

And I think this is absolutely splendid, amazing.[laughing]

Sean McDowell:

That's interesting. That's a good contrast, the way only Kierkegaard, I think, could do it.

Miroslav Volf:

Uh-huh.

Sean McDowell:

Now, let me, let me push back for fun.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah.

Sean McDowell:

Paul says in Romans 12-10, "To outdo one another in showing honor." How does that fit in? Sounds like he's kind of saying, "Do better than-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, I know

Sean McDowell:

... One another."

Miroslav Volf:

I know. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell:

Beat somebody, in a sense. Be superior by outperforming them-

Miroslav Volf:

Yes

Sean McDowell:

... And loving, elevating others. How does that fit into your thesis?

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, and, so I deal with that text, and I- ... I think, I think that what we have-... Is a, what I would, say is mistranslation. It's not to, to outdo another in a competition, as it is lead the other. So- ... So take a lead [chuckles] ... In doing the good works, rather than-... Be better than others in doing, good works. I think that's prob- that's the correct translation of this-... Of this verse.

Sean McDowell:

So show, model for people what it means to show honor to those who our society might not show honor to, is the call. He's not doing a comparison game between people in that.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah. Be example-

Sean McDowell:

Mm-hmm

Miroslav Volf:

... In doing just that, right?

Sean McDowell:

Okay.

Miroslav Volf:

So that, rather than, "Oh, you should be- you should strive to be better than they." Do it in such a way that you set the standard, if you want, [chuckles] For... That you do, that you do better in a sense that you lead, but in the sense lead, not in the sense that you derive the value from being, better, but that you have taken responsibility to do it, as well as it can be done.

Sean McDowell:

Okay, so I imagine if people have stayed with us in this interview and conversation- ... At this point, people are having a similar reaction that I had when I read it, which is a few moments I thought, "Wow, that kinda, that hit home a little bit. I need to think about this and process this." How could somebody know if they are striving for superiority to be better than others, rather than the kind of biblical ambition that you described to be a better person or to just do excellence? How could somebody really kinda... Is it a matter of just praying? Is it reflecting? Is it thinking about it, being honest to themselves? How could somebody really come to a recognition that this might be something in their life they need to work on?

Miroslav Volf:

How often does the phrase,"I'm better, I do better, I look better"-... Maybe not the phrase, but the thought, how often does it- ... Does it appear? How often do comparisons-... Appear? And I think even more, how much do they matter? Because often comparisons would show up, right? We're- humans compare. And I think in some ways, there's nothing wrong in comparing.

Sean McDowell:

Sure.

Miroslav Volf:

It's what one does with the results of comparison. To compare is just to live a human life in context of, of others. It's more what I do. Do, do I sense, Am I dejected if I'm, if I don't stack up? Am I proud if I, if I do? Do I think, or am I aware that there are alternative ways of thinking about- ... Who I am, and how I relate to others? That would be, for me, a, an indic- sufficient indicator. I think the difficult question, of course, is that it's so deeply ingrained in us-... There are evolutionary reasons, for it, other reasons as well, so that it becomes, it can become obsessive struggle against it. And I think we need to have a kind of sense of taking it seriously. But on the other hand, realizing that this is not simple, easy matter of overcoming. Be also kind to oneself. In, I think that's, it's always a good thing in just about all domains of life, a certain kind of kindness, to oneself seems to me, appropriate. And I think, of course, it can make us lazy, and we do, we can, we can fail to strive, at all. But generally, I find that it doesn't. Generally, I think it encourages us. Elevates, kindness toward ourselves elevates, the spirit, and we can actually perform better, unworried about, how other people, assess us, how we stack against them. Sometimes we're paralyzed because we can't... Paralyzed in speaking, paralyzed in doing- ... Whatever it is that we are doing- ... Because we aren't gonna be, as good as somebody else. It's not worth doing it, because we aren't gonna be really good wi- in this way. And we do ourselves harm, and that kindness then, if we have it, can free us up to be who we are and to contribute what we can, and to have a kind of joy- ... In life that otherwise eludes us.

Sean McDowell:

Some ways you may have answered my last question, is you write this, in the conclusion, you have this section here that's like 24-

Miroslav Volf:

[chuckles]

Sean McDowell:

... Principles against striving for superiority. And, one of them says, word for word, I wrote down, it says, "We must give up striving for superiority." Now, it seems like- ... Given that you said it's embedded everywhere-

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah

Sean McDowell:

... Arguably comes out of our sinful nature in some fashion, we're not even probably aware of the level of striving for superiority that's in our lives in different ways. How do we do that? Partly, partly, I wanna go easier said than done.

Miroslav Volf:

Yeah, yeah.

Sean McDowell:

How do we practice this? What does it look like to become a person who doesn't strive for superiority over others?

Miroslav Volf:

So, so I was, I was just arguing that we should be kind toward ourselves, and I seem not to have been kind to my readers.[laughing]

Sean McDowell:

[laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

We must![laughing]

Sean McDowell:

Fair, fair enough. [laughing]

Miroslav Volf:

I think, I think what should have been, written there, what I had in mind and didn't quite, quite put on the page, striving for superiority as a, as a kind of ideal or as a- ... As a, as a, as a, as a principle according to which we act. I think that can be, that can be done, and that can be done very, very easily for us to realize a striving for superiority is not simply a good.... There are some goods that results from it, but there, it's not as simply a good. It's also an impediment, it's also a negative thing, and we need to rethink, how it figures in the scale of values that we embrace. We shouldn't embrace striving for superiority. That's what I meant to say here. And then the question that you are raising, well, how does one do that? How do we struggle? And I think, I think in that, domain of actual practical implementation, I think we should be kind to ourselves. Aware. I think, again, we should be kind to ourselves in all sorts of, areas in which we are, prone to not to do as we hope, as we strive, as we aspire-... To do. And I think that kind of kindness is not a, is not a cheap, acquiescence to kind of mediocrity. To whatever I am, I just s- I sit and float, and, nothing matters. I think if we think, if we assess ourselves, and if we love ourselves, only to the level to which we perform, if we measure our relation to ourselves, to our performance, and to our performance vis-a-vis others, in particular- ... We will have a difficulty. And, then if we don't strive for superiority, we might end up being, just, floaters [chuckles] around. But I think we shouldn't do that. I shouldn't judge myself on the basis of low performance, neither should I judge myself on the basis of high per- ... Performance. Neither should... I should not loathe myself if I don't perform. I should not praise myself and gloat- ... If I, if I, perform, really su- ... In a superior ways. We should love ourself with the same love that God loves us- ... Which is to say, love that is agape. "I love you for who you are," says God to us. I love myself. I should love myself. I don't love myself that way often, but I should love myself- ... For who I am, and not for how well I have performed. Now, once we have this sense that our worth comes in this being affirmed by God- ... For who we are as human beings, once we understand, as Kierkegaard put it in regard to Solomon, that naked Solomon is more glorious- [chuckles]

Sean McDowell:

[chuckles]

Miroslav Volf:

... Than a splendidly clad Solomon. And that's possible only- ... If our very being is appreciated-... Loved. Once that happens, then we open up to the possibility of, performing joyfully, whatever it is- ... That we are calling, b- whatever it is that we are called to do and to perform, irrespective how we stack- ... Against others.

Sean McDowell:

That's a great word for us to end on, 'cause it's the heart of your book, that striving for superiority, in a sense, affects us from loving other people, loving God, and being loved by God, which is where freedom comes in. And the solution to that, in a sense, is to just free ourselves from this strive and be better than others, and just learn to rest in who God made us to be and His love for us. Beautiful message. Thoroughly enjoyed your book, read it twice. I think I'm gonna go back to it again, just to have some of these ideas really sink in my mind. It's called The Cost of Ambition by Dr. Miroslav Volf. Thanks for taking the time to join me.

Miroslav Volf:

It's, it's great to talk to you.

Sean McDowell:

It was wonderful. [upbeat music]

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Sean McDowell

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