Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture
Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture
Can Christlikeness and Competitiveness Go Together? (with Erik Thoennes)
What does it mean to play sports for the glory of God? How do you keep someone from tying their identity to their success in sports? And why do parents sometimes have a greater interest in their child’s success in sports than the child himself/herself? We’ll answer these questions and more with our guest, our Talbot colleague in theology, Dr. Erik Thoennes.
Erik Thoennes is committed to teaching theology so that he and his students love God and people more fully. He strives to make the necessary connections between the study of theology, obedience to Jesus and fulfilling the Great Commission. He has been teaching college students for over 30 years and has been a pastor at Grace Evangelical Free Church La Mirada since 2001. Erik is a frequent guest speaker at churches, conferences and retreats. He received the University award for faculty excellence and professor of the year twice. His research interests include godly jealousy, the atonement, the exclusivity of Christ and theology of culture, sport/play/competition, and humor.
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Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture is a podcast from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, which offers degrees both online and on campus in Southern California.
Find all episodes of Think Biblically at: https://www.biola.edu/think-biblically.
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To submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to have on the podcast, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu.
Scott Rae
What does it mean to play sports for the glory of God? And how do you keep someone from tying their identity to their success in sports? And why do parents sometimes have a greater interest in their child's success in sports than the child himself or herself does? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more with our guest, our colleague in theology, Dr. Eric Thoennes. I'm your host, Scott Rae.
Sean McDowell
And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell.
Scott Rae
This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Eric, so glad to have you here with us. Uh, and, and I look so forward to having your insights on this particular topic. This is not a topic we've addressed before, uh, and I think you've got a lot to say about this with your, your past as an athlete, uh, but both, you know, wa- watching athletes at Biola and, you know, doing some coaching yourself as well. So great to have you with us.
Erik Thoennes
Great to be with you guys.
Scott Rae
Tell us how you developed such an interest in this, in the subject of a theology of play and sports. And, and why- why do you think this subject is so important for us to cover?
Erik Thoennes
I had a lot of challenges early on in my life as a kid. And sports early on became therapy for me. It became an escape and it- it became a place to go in the park. And challenges I may have elsewhere were a million miles away when I was out playing basketball or football at Colony Park in Ansonia, Connecticut. And it was, it was... I didn't realize it at the time-
Scott Rae
All- all pickup.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
All pickup games.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. Early on, yeah. And so I- I just loved... I also loved sort of less structured play, running in the woods and just that sort of thing. But sports for me... And I realized fairly early on I was a pretty good athlete and that was an avenue to social acceptance. And so sports... And I- I grew up in a football obsessed town that every little boy aspired to- to play football for the Ansonia Chargers. So that early on became a motivation. But, you know, I was a Christian when I was a kid and I didn't think much about the connection between the two. But later on in life, I realized how easy it is for sports and athletics to become an identity too much and idolatry. And on the other hand, I've noticed that some Christians have no place for it because it so easily becomes idolatrous and seems nothing but like a shallow pursuit that isn't eternally minded. So throughout the history of the church, we haven't done a great job with things like that.
Scott Rae
Now, you- you reached a level of athletic success that most people don't get to. So tell us just for- for context on this, how- how far sort of up the success ladder did you get in- in your football playing?
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. So after college, I- I played through college and then had some NFL-
Scott Rae
Divi- division one college?
Erik Thoennes
It was IAA back then.
Scott Rae
Okay.
Erik Thoennes
Now it's a different category, but it was IAA and it was, uh... Just after that, I went and played in the European league that they had at the time for- for four years.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
So some people would make a distinction, uh, myself included, between play and like sports/competition.
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
Would you make that distinction? Why or why not? What might be the difference if there is such a difference?
Erik Thoennes
So as I started to try to really unpack what sports is for... from a Christian perspective, I realized there are two primary components to it, and it is play and competition that come together. And I really think that relationship done well is the key to sports done well. So I- I do think there's a solid Christian perspective that gives us an understanding of competition in a good way. And I also believe there's a view of play and playfulness that the Christian life gives us. But when you bring those two together in sports, doing both of them well is really important. So you have an attitude that doesn't care enough about the game because there's no com- competition, that it's, "Oh, who cares?" Well, that's no good. That's why I read one author who said, "We hate the ch- the spoil sport more than the cheat." So the... Because the cheat is at least respecting the rules enough to try to get around them.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) But the spoil sport says, "Who cares? I'll just..." You know, it doesn't really matter.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
Well, no, when we play sports, we make this world of make believe with make believe parameters and time limits and rules that don't actually exist. We just make them up. We invent them. And it's a world of creativity and it's a world that we commit to. And committing to it actually enables the play to be that much better. And so that... I- I really think at the heart of good sports is that relationship between competition and play. You can have play where a dog's chasing its tail, or animals actually have a lot to teach us about how to play. We forget they don't typically. But- but... So you can- you can have playfulness with no sport competitive rules associated with it. But once you put those two together, that's when you have sports. And maintaining a healthy balance between those two I think is the key-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... to healthy sports.
Scott Rae
Now, Eric, I, you know, I coached my kids for a- a long time at various levels, you know, at the- at the club level in basketball and then at the rec league level.
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
And I can see, I... Your point about connecting play and competition is easier for me to see at the rec league level-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... where basically we're just- we're just playing for fun and it's not... You know, it's competitive and, you know, some dads want- want to win way too much-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Scott Rae
... uh, and they forget that it's a rec league and not the NCAA tournament.
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Scott Rae
But at higher levels-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... you know, when somebody like on the varsity level in high school or in college or even at the professional level, I think there the- that connection I think is harder to draw because it's, you know, there's- there's a lot of money involved. It's a lot... The competition's a lot more serious.
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
Uh, the fans take it a lot more seriously. Uh, so how- how do you help people connect the dots at those higher-
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... more elite levels of sport that- that you've experienced yourself?
Erik Thoennes
... that's when it tends to become so idolatrous. But it- it does at every level. I've seen some of the worst attitudes in a rec situ- at the Y, when it's not even a league, right?
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
We're not even a team. I have seen some of the worst stuff go down there-
Sean McDowell
(laughs) .
Erik Thoennes
... that's just ridiculous. And so-
Scott Rae
I've been... I- I- I played hoops with guys-
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Scott Rae
... who, who were in their 40s and 50s, who thought their glory years-
Erik Thoennes
I know.
Scott Rae
... were not quite behind them.
Erik Thoennes
It's so true.
Scott Rae
They had terrible attitudes.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. And- and, uh, w- we need to realize, we're working out all kinds of stuff, just like I was as, uh, as a kid. We're always doing that.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
We're all always working out our stuff-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... in our professions-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... in, in our homes, and just different things. We can, we can have so much of our identity riding on things, which is why I think that's the vital thing. And- and you'll hear h- the highest level of professional athletes helpfully put things in perspective when they win or lose and say, "This isn't who I am. This is a fleeting thing that I have, and it's a gift God gave me, but it's not my core identity." And you actually tend to play better when that's your perspective. I remember I had tryouts with the Giants and the Patriots, and all the other guys trying to make the team, I could tell, since they were 10, they had been told, "This is what you're gonna do."
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Erik Thoennes
I was a late bloomer. I just couldn't believe I was there.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
And I was like a kid in a candy shop. I... And I didn't feel any pressure. And I had found my identity in Christ, and so it was just so great. And I actually performed better in everything than I ever had, and still got cut, cut immediately. But (laughs) , but it- it- it was great to feel a freedom, because my identity wasn't riding on it. I, I actually was able to enjoy it for what it was rather than something that my life depended on.
Sean McDowell
Mm. So I'm curious what it means to play sports for the glory of God. Like, in part, you describe wrestling these things as a kid growing up, and then it's like you're at an NFL tryout, and it's like, "I'm just playing for the glory of God." Like, how did you get there, and what does that mean to have that freedom that you're describing?
Erik Thoennes
Well, I know both of you have wonderfully, helpfully developed theologies of work. And I think it needs to start-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Erik Thoennes
... as you guys would, with doing it well. You know, a lot of people think, "Oh, I do it for the glory of God, so doing it really well doesn't matter that much, 'cause it's for something bigger than it, it is." But if you rush past the thing, whatever it is, th- that you're doing for the glory of God-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... changing a diaper for the glory of God, w- making a meal for your family for the glory of God, whatever it is, you wanna do it well. That's where-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Erik Thoennes
... glorifying God has to start. You can't just say, "I have this very spiritual attitude toward these things, so it doesn't matter what- how it is." And so, I think the first thing we need to think about is glorifying God by stewarding the gifts he's given us well, and in our hearts, redirecting the ultimate credit for it to him, and letting that be expressed from our lives. So doing it well, but doing it in a way where you're enjoying him in the midst of doing this craft to your best ability, and, and over years, making it better and better. And that's what I miss, actually, most about it, is stewarding gifts on a daily basis. I mean-
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Erik Thoennes
... you guys were both athletes, and y- you played in college, and you know every year, you had this mentality, "I'm coming back better next year."
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
"I'm coming back stronger, faster, quicker-"
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
"... more skilled. I'm, I'm coming back better." And that was so delightful to have that kinda goal with measurable goals associated with it, all the while realizing how fragile it is. That's why, per capita, athletes are way more religious than non-athletes. So are farmers-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
... for the same reason.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
You have such a sense of how tenuous this all is. Everything I've been working for for 10 years-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... could go with one Achilles, just like we saw in the, in the NBA Championship (laughs) , right? It- and, and so, uh, sometimes the religion's just superstition. But there- there's a sense of, "I, I'm not ultimately in control of any of this, the bounce of the ball or my tendons."
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And so, I can work hard, I can steward this well, but there is a sense of, "Something bigger than me going on here," which is why I think sports should humble you. Sometimes athletes are the most arrogant people on the planet. But they should be the most humble, because they... Uh, who else every day than a, a competitive athlete gets to the end of herself, who can't do one more sprint, can't do one more rep? Very few people experience ultimate limitation on a daily basis, on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis. That's why (laughs) I try to go out every once in a while and do something like I used to. I was running hills on Monday.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
Oh, that is really hard, just trying to run as hard as I can, where I have to stop, and I just... I can't do another one till I, I catch my breath. There's something really good about feeling-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... your limitations, your frailty in that way, that sports can be such a spiritual discipline like that. It can be great, because like fasting, like other things that gets you to the end of yourself, you say, "Wow, it doesn't take much for me to be done." And so that's just a, a good exercise to do. So sports has a great potential for sanctification.
Sean McDowell
So, so let, let me push back just a little bit-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. Yeah.
Sean McDowell
... for clarification. You said, "For the glory of God." It sounds like, if I heard you correctly, two things. Number one, doing something well, which means excellence, and then the motivation out of love for God.
Erik Thoennes
Yes.
Sean McDowell
So you refer to changing a diaper, if I'm like, "I love you, God. I'm in a rush, don't change a diaper well," is that not glorifying God?
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
I mean, it sounds performance based-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
... excellence equals glorifying-
Erik Thoennes
Thank you.
Sean McDowell
... God. Is that what we mean?
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. So there, there's a tension here, isn't there, between wanting to do something and stewarding God's gifts as well as you can, and at the same time realize that we're never gonna find perfection in anything until Heaven.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And, and I know in my life, in every area of my life, I've had to be okay with mediocrity in most things. I'm like a C-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... in most things I do.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) I'm serious. And, and I've learned to be okay with that. And it's not 'cause I'm lazy. It's just an... Average is called average for a reason.And- and, you know, I, I thought I was gonna lose a friendship with, uh, uh, some friends when their son didn't make the All-Star team. And I suggested that maybe he shouldn't have.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) And, and maybe the kid who did is better, and maybe you should suggest that to your child. They thought that was just a horrible suggestion and mean parenting and... But think about-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... the value of saying, "Okay, the kid who made it..." And how often do you hear, "Oh, the coach is a jerk. The ref's a jerk."
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
"Everybody's a jerk. Nobody's giving me the respect I deserve."
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
Well, maybe ask them why you didn't make the team. And if it's 'cause you're not fast enough, work on your speed or, or work on your agility or whatever it is. Instead, we don't grow as much as we should because we just say, "Oh, the coach is a jerk 'cause he didn't put me on the team."
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And so, that's, that's mean parenting. I think we need to be honest. I mean, sports is a great-
Sean McDowell
I agree.
Erik Thoennes
... opportunity for honesty. It, it's good to have an honesty in the actual ability you have, but the feedback you get can pump your head up and defeat one of the main, uh, things you can accomplish in sports.
Scott Rae
Now, Eric, I so appreciate the, the emphasis on humility in this and how sports can bring that out in you. I think there's probably a reason why the, the, the NFL stands for not for long.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) Right, exactly.
Scott Rae
And I think, and I think most, most of the players understand that.
Erik Thoennes
That's right.
Scott Rae
That they, that it could be, it could be gone in an instant. Um, so let, let me go back to play for a minute. And I'm still, I think, still wrestling with the-
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... connection between play and competition-
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... a bit. But, uh, you make the, you make the comment that play is grounded in the hope of the gospel.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
What, what do you mean by that?
Erik Thoennes
So, life is serious in a fallen world. And we, we live in a cursed and fallen world, and the Bible's mostly serious. And w- we know a God who's a consuming fire and should put us on our faces. But (laughs) woven into that is incredible extravagant grace and gracious sovereignty with the assurance that it's all going to for- work out for good for those who love God and are called in- called according to His purpose. And so, because we have the future hope of the resurrection, we have the future hope a new- of a new heavens and a new earth, that even in the midst of gut-wrenching difficulty in this life because of that hope we have in the gospel, we're able to be playful. We're able to take God very seriously, but not ourselves, and take life seriously, but in a way that never feels like it's all resting on our shoulders or that we aren't confident about a great ultimate outcome. We had friends who just went through a tragedy recently, and I didn't even really think about it, but just when I sent them a note, I just put, "I'm so glad Jesus has the last word."
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And that was tremendously encouraging to them that Jesus gets the last word.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
As many hard things that may happen in this life, Jesus wins. And, and when we trust Him, we win with Him. And so, so that gives us an ability to be playful, not just in sports, but doing the, the dishes with your kids. I, I, I especially try to encourage dads to have a playfulness. You know, when you're doing dishes, squirt your kid, your son, with the, with the water. Flick some suds at him and get something going in, in the house and, and don't just be serious so much that you've got- you're onto the next thing.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
And that's the thing. We can be very task-oriented when we're, we try to be good stewards. But because of God's sovereignty and grace, one author I read said that we all should view ourselves as just children at play.
Scott Rae
So that- that- that's really helpful. I hadn't thought about that connection between playfulness and ex- and being a means of exhibiting grace-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... uh, and a means of appreciating that we're... maybe we're not, we're not all that we're cracked up to be-
Erik Thoennes
Yes.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Scott Rae
... uh, this side of eternity. That's really helpful.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
And I mean, I, I mean, I know, I know a lot of people who, they take life really seriously, they take themselves very seriously. And as a result, they can't, they sort of can't let down.
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Scott Rae
And you n- you never see their guard come down.
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Scott Rae
Um, and that, that's, that's, that's really helpful. I hope, I s- I hope, I hope our listeners take... If they don't take anything else away from this, that, that is, that's a point worth taking away-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... I think from the whole session.
Sean McDowell
I think it's a great point. Let me push back since you know as well as anyone since you're like... You've probably, you're probably the guest that's been on this the most. And I only mention that to turn it into a competition. I'm kidding.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
But, uh, this is called The Think Biblically Podcast, so an obvious question is, where does the Bible speak to competition that could be relevant to sports? Now, before you answer that, obviously the Bible's not gonna talk about football or basketball, but it speaks to principles that overlap. What principles or stories does the Bible talk about related to sports?
Erik Thoennes
So one of the hallmarks of the way we do things here at Talbot and Biola is taking the Bible seriously and not reading things into the Bible.
Sean McDowell
Amen.
Erik Thoennes
And not trying to find support for things we think from the Bible. So, I am profoundly committed to a approach to doing theology that respects the nature of revelation.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
General, but special too, grounded in, in this. Another burden I have though is the Bible obviously explicitly teaches a l- uh, some core things about redemptive history, about the glory of God, about us being made in the image of God, these basic doctrines that we teach in our theology classes. But a real concern I have is that we recognize the core teachings of the Bible-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... but also do good work, especially in this liberal arts environment at Biola, to think, "Well, how does-"...the image of God apply to a nursing major?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And the way she's going to-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...have perseverance caring-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...for people that can feel like an assembly line? What does it mean for us to think theologically about art when the Bible doesn't have sort of this explicit teaching on art or how we should think about jazz music or these sorts of things? So, we, we need, as theologians, to say, "Okay. The, the Bible has explicit big ideas it teaches and I wanna emphasize those, but I also wanna speak into everyday life, the theology of the ordinary." The Bible doesn't have an explicit teaching on sleep, but it says things about sleep that God never does. He never slumbers or sleeps. And we're frail and it takes a, a degree of trusting God's sovereignty to sleep soundly. And, and so, it has some things that may to say about sleep. So, I wanna develop a Christian view of sleep. It's a, we spend a third of our lives doing it. Let's think about it. We, I wanna think about a Christian view of-
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
...of eating and food, right? Uh, one of my favorite books is, is The Supper of the Lamb, uh, which is a chef theologian who writes about. I... So, I- I'm very concerned that we rightly emphasize the big things in the Bible, but don't speak into stuff that is every day in our lives-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...in helpful ways. Not overdoing it. So, when it comes to sport, theology, competition, first of all, play is grounded in w- the things we were just saying, the, the, this new heavens and the new Earth, the eschaton. It actually biblically is described as children at play by a-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...by a serpent's den without being harmed.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
Uh, so creation itself has all this playfulness in it. The, the Bible (laughs) talks about God playing with Leviathan to demonstrate His magnitude and his power, right?
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
And so, there's a playfulness in creation and it's... I love that our philosophers here have, have knocked it out of the park on intelligent design. Well, I, I love to think about playful design and extravagant design.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
God's design can be intelligent, but He doesn't need billions of daisies. He doesn't need-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...a platypus, right?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
But there's a playfulness in creation itself-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...that the Bible talks about, an extravagance in it, that I think points to a playfulness even in creation itself and in the way God brings about our salvation. And so-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
So play, I think, is, is throughout the Bible in those sorts of ways. Competition-
Sean McDowell
Now, hold that competition for a second.
Erik Thoennes
Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Sean McDowell
I wanna make sure people see. The way you're thinking about this as kinda general revelation. We look at the platypus, we look at like the way-
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Sean McDowell
...certain animals play and it seems to be built into nature.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
So, we can look at the world God created-
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Sean McDowell
...know what He designed us for. We can also look at scripture-
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Sean McDowell
...and see certain passages that talk about God's playfulness and human playfulness. So, they go together.
Erik Thoennes
Right. Yeah.
Sean McDowell
I just wanna make sure people see the way you're arriving-
Erik Thoennes
That's it.
Sean McDowell
...at a theology of this.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. So, methodologically-
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
...it's, it's general revelation, creational around us and, but grounded in special revelations, interpretation of those things.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
Can we find things in the Bible that point to these things we see in creation that are theologically-
Sean McDowell
It's perfect.
Erik Thoennes
...instructive?
Sean McDowell
Yeah, that's perfect. Keep going.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Sean McDowell
You're starting to talk about competition. Keep going.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. So, I, I ground competition in the pre-Fall command to rule over and subdue and be fruitful and multiply.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
Now, there's no sin in the world. There isn't that cursed-
Sean McDowell
Okay.
Erik Thoennes
...element of that competitiveness. But before the Fall, and I believe in the new heavens and the new Earth, there is going to be a, a rule, subdue, fruitful and multiply reality that continues. And so, so rule and subdue are strong words there-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...before the Fall. So, we're not fighting the powers of darkness. We're not fighting sin yet, but there's still a bring your personhood to bear on creation. Make, create, uh, conform it to something you want it to be. And so, there, there isn't the sin of the, and the curse involved in that-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...yet. And so, so I think that continues. I think faithful stewardship of the creation mandate has a kind of competitiveness to it where, where we're bringing things into conformity based-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
...on our image of God personhood. But then when you add the curse to it, I think it takes on a whole different dynamic where the Bible does use buffeting our bodies and, and wrestling and running and these, this imagery for running the Christian life that in, now does include sin and powers of darkness that we're combating, that we need to take very seriously. And it doesn't have to be sports. Suffering is the foundational way we grow in these ways, but sports can give you the ability to become a more persevering person, someone who realizes you actually are able to do more than you thought you could, especially when you depend on God. I remember I played pickup basketball with a bunch of guys one time. Actually, it was in our gym and a bunch of guys from off campus came in our gym, some non-Christian guys, and they were cussing up a storm. And, and (laughs) I was playing with them, and this was back when I could still play, and we, we were done and we were all sitting around and one of the guys said to me, "What do you do?" And I said, "Oh, I'm a pastor."
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
And he goes, "You're not a pastor."
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
And I said, "What do you mean? Why, why would you say that?" And he said, "You're too intense to be a pastor."
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
And I said to him, "Are you kidding me? Do you understand what the Christian life is? It's warfare, man. We're in a war. I'm actually in a war you're not in because you're not fighting (laughs) the same battles and enemies I am as a Christian." And I said, "When you become a child of God, you become a soldier in His army as well."
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And so, it, and it was completely new to him, but he had this idea that Christians are these passive, soft, you know, people who, who can't get into it on a basketball court within that agreed parameter that, that we agree to.
Scott Rae
I love that. All right, so let's tackle the dark side of this-
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... a bit, because that's certainly out there. We see, you know, we see enough stories of, uh, competition gone, gone off the rails, and we see athletes who are, as you mentioned, prideful and arrogant and think the world revolves around them, uh. I think probably there's, there's probably more narcissism per square inch among elite athletes-
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) .
Scott Rae
... than maybe any other population. Uh-
Erik Thoennes
And you play tennis. Lately, man, tennis players are idiots.
Scott Rae
(laughs) . (laughs) .
Erik Thoennes
I hope you're not smashing rackets these days, Scott (laughs) .
Scott Rae
That's a, that's a bad thing to say with Wimbledon starting this week.
Erik Thoennes
I know. Yeah, but have you seen-
Scott Rae
Yes. Uh-
Erik Thoennes
... the way they behave? Ugh.
Scott Rae
Uh, although, you know, I- I- I watched some tennis players in my past that, uh-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... put, put, put them in shape.
Erik Thoennes
But actually, McEnroe's tame these days.
Scott Rae
That's right. Um, but anyway, how, how does... You talked about the idolatry of s- of sport. So, how do you know-
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... if someone has succumbed to that? What are the danger signs that you see and that you've advised people to watch out for?
Erik Thoennes
I think it has to start w- with, one, you st- you're starting to really find your identity in this, that your worth before God and other people is starting to depend on your performance and your victories or how well you do things. And, and that's where it's gotta start, but then it has to, uh, continue with the way you view your opponent or your teammates. You, you have to see your sport experience as an opportunity to be a minister and to bless people and encourage people and love people. And sometimes that means you say, "Come on man, stop turning the ball over."
Scott Rae
(laughs) .
Erik Thoennes
Right? It doesn't mean you can't shoot straight.
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
But it means you're doing it for his good, right? We all know the difference between somebody who criticizes because-
Scott Rae
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... they're just ticked and somebody who criticizes 'cause they want us to be better.
Scott Rae
Right. Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
I want-
Scott Rae
That's pretty obvious.
Erik Thoennes
I want teammates to call me out-
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
... if I'm being late. And when I was coaching, I said, "Guys, I'm never gonna get on you for lack of ability. I will always get on you for being lazy, stupid, or selfish." And so-
Scott Rae
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... sports is a laboratory for character growth, and, and if those sorts of things exhibit themselves, that's a great opportunity to bear down on them and say, and confess and repent and own those things and grow in our character in Christlike ways. And so, how am I viewing myself? How am I viewing the people I'm with, my coaches, my, the ref? Like Otani, man, he is just taking things from another... Did you see the other day?
Scott Rae
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
He got plunked again, and they were about to come out of the dugout and he just called him off.
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
And the r- the commentator said, "This guy is just different." Now, he's probably Buddhist, which bums me out.
Scott Rae
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) I wish the Christian guy was, was the one-
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
... who's taking things to another level, but, but i- it's just amazing how we can be so different in an environment that's become idolatrous in the way we treat people, in the way we care for people. And everybody wants a teammate who's for them and not just for themselves, and so, so just how we conduct ourselves. But to truly enjoy the sheer ability to do what God's enabled us to do is har- how it has to start, whether it's music or, or using our minds, or whatever it is, sense of humor, doing it saying, "Lord, thank you," and enjoying him because of the way he's given us these gifts and we get to use them the way we do.
Scott Rae
Yeah. I wonder, just a quick follow-up on that. I wonder if it, that might be an issue that's tougher on coaches than it is on players-
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
... because coaches are, they're in the game for a lot longer than players are normally-
Erik Thoennes
Sure.
Scott Rae
... although coaches, you know, they, you know, y- y- there's, there's no elite coach that's never been fired-
Erik Thoennes
Right.
Scott Rae
... probably mult- multiple times.
Erik Thoennes
Right, right, right. Um, but I- I wonder if, if the temptation for coaches is greater even than for players to make the sport their identity. Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, it, in some ways you think the coach has more control, but ultimately the players have got to do what he says. You, you, you can talk all you want, you can try to strategize all you want, but if, if the players don't go along with it... But the best coaches are guys or, and women who the players know, "He cares about me. She really has my life and my... She doesn't just see me as a golfer. She sees me as somebody who has value apart from this." And the best coaches get that across, that, "I care you as, uh, uh, uh, I care about you as a person, not just somebody who's gonna give the product I'm trying to get out of you."
Scott Rae
Yeah, I wonder, I... A guy that I coached with for several years at the, at the club level, he would always say to the guys, he said, "We play sports to learn about life."
Erik Thoennes
That's right.
Scott Rae
And I wonder if that's, if that's applicable at every level. And even at even the most elite-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... people who are going to the Hall of Fame, ultimately it, would be fair to say that they ought, they ought to view their sport the same way, that they, they're playing this to learn about life and to put, to learn about life after-
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
... you know, after they're done playing?
Erik Thoennes
Yeah, I think it depends on, on the players. So Michael Jordan and David Robinson, one of the most fascinating things you can do is watch both of their Hall of Fame induction speeches-
Scott Rae
(laughs) .
Erik Thoennes
... 'cause Jordan still has a lot to prove. David Robinson's thanking the guy who handed out towels. He's thanking-
Scott Rae
(laughs) .
Erik Thoennes
... uh, he's thanking the janitor. He's crying out of a heart of gratitude.
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
Jordan's still qui- he's, he's inviting people to call him out.
Scott Rae
He's still
[speaker_3]
... yeah.
Erik Thoennes
And it's sad to me. It really is, and it just makes me sad that he still can't just say-
Scott Rae
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... "All right." And, and people laud that all the time. I feel sorry for him. I, I really do. Where a guy like David Robinson, grounded in Christ, is able to just be truly grateful-... instead of still just driven by this really inordinate competitive spirit.
Sean McDowell
Mm.
Erik Thoennes
And they talk all the time about he- he can't even play tiddlywinks without wanting to take somebody out. And I think, I think the best athletes have some of that. Like, I have a son, my- my son is an amazing athlete, but I always have said (laughs) I don't think he'll ever be really good because he's too emotionally healthy.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) He doesn't have so much to prove like I did that, that... Like, if somebody beats me, it's like, "All right, next time, I'm, I'm ripping your throat out."
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
He just doesn't have that. He's like, "Hey, nice move." I'm like, "What do you mean nice move?" (laughs)
Sean McDowell
(laughs) Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
But, but, but he- he doesn't have as much to, to prove in that way, so sometimes you don't get to those higher levels because you're actually just well-adjusted (laughs) and you're not trying to prove too much.
Sean McDowell
And that- that's interesting to compare Robinson with Jordan. Like, that would take us aside. Robinson has two rings, I believe, with the Spurs, one of the best centers of all time, didn't have as much to prove by just dominating opponents.
Erik Thoennes
Yes, yeah.
Sean McDowell
So Jordan, could you be the greatest of all time without having that edge to just beat somebody for egotistical reasons?
Erik Thoennes
That's right.
Sean McDowell
We don't have to answer that, but I think as Christians, we have to say the world's metric of being the greatest is not the highest pinnacle.
Erik Thoennes
That's right. That's right.
Sean McDowell
You can win the game and the trophy, lose your soul.
Erik Thoennes
And your family. Yeah, yeah.
Sean McDowell
That's what I think comes into it.
Erik Thoennes
That's right.
Sean McDowell
So let me... Earlier, Scott asked a great question, a question about idolatry and competition, and I wanna imagine you and I just sitting down in your office, and I said, "Eric, talk to me. Here I'm at in my life." And you're like counseling me, and everybody's just kind of listening in, all right? So COVID hit. I'm 44 years old. I thought I was done with hoops at 40. My son says to me, he goes, "Dad, you gotta get back in basketball shape. There is no one else to play with."
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
He's a high school player. As you know, he's playing at Biola right now. I'm like, "Okay." So we play and he beats me, and I'm like ticked. I'm like, "Dang it. Like, he beat me at 16." So I get in shape, and I just, for a year, I'm just beating him every time until the last time we played. And I was feeling good beating his friends and, like, having fun and feeling like I've still got this. I quit, came back six months later, and I kid you not, I was like a JV player. I lost everything.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs)
Sean McDowell
And now at 49, I'm like, "You know what? That is never coming back. I'm done." Part of me mourns it. The other part of me is just like, "You know what? Like, I'm, I'm okay with that. That was a season. I'm good with it." I don't enjoy playing if I can't be competitive, at least with good high school players. (laughs) And I look inside, I'm like, "I really don't think it's a pride thing."
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Sean McDowell
"I think I just enjoy competing." And that season during COVID was like a gift that I look at, I didn't expect, and I'm like, "I'm okay with it." H- what would you say to somebody who's working through in their mind, like, what questions would you ask? How- how has that competitive streak become idolatrous? I mean, what would that conversation look like? I want people watching this to ask the tough questions to themselves.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah, yeah. That's great.
Sean McDowell
Have I crossed that line, and where should I give myself, like, pause and repent?
Erik Thoennes
Right, so it... You asked me to counsel you.
Sean McDowell
Do it.
Erik Thoennes
I'm thinking about you.
Sean McDowell
Do it.
Erik Thoennes
So God didn't give you a 6'7", 250-pound body, right?
Sean McDowell
(laughs) That's a fact. You played me when I was 4. (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
So I know. I played, I- I remember playing with you, and I, I re- I know- I have heard about the kind of player you were-
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... here, and you were the kind of player that makes a great coach, because you had to work so hard. You couldn't depend on all this-
Sean McDowell
I did. That's a fact, yeah.
Erik Thoennes
... natural ability. You worked really hard, and you-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... uh, Colm Quist has told me this, you're one of those guys who's the coach's dream because what does a coach want? He wants you to actually get not just the most out of your ability, but more than your, your natural ability gives you.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And that, that's what coaches are trying to do, not just let you be status quo, but take you to another level, and, and, and to make everybody else better. That's the kind of player (laughs) you were, right?
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
So, so that's the kind of... Like, Michael Jordan will never be a great coach because he-
Sean McDowell
I totally agree.
Erik Thoennes
... he cannot feel anyone's pain and not having that kind of natural ability.
Sean McDowell
He's never really been on the bench before. (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
No, right. The worst teachers I've had are teachers teaching me another language that they grew up speaking.
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
They can't feel my pain, right? They have no- they just learned it. And same thing with sports. And so, so you, y- you stewarded what you did have in really significant ways, which means you developed this work ethic that's now working out in what you're doing now-
Sean McDowell
Sure.
Erik Thoennes
... in every area. And that's the beauty of sports, that when you lose it, like I used to be able to jump over a car.
Sean McDowell
(laughs) Are you serious?
Erik Thoennes
Now, I, my vertical's like that. (laughs) I mean, I c- I, I used to... Yeah, it, it, but it's gone-
Sean McDowell
Wow.
Erik Thoennes
... like you said. And I actually think there's a right place to grieve that.
Sean McDowell
Hmm.
Erik Thoennes
I- it's like someone who used to be able to play the violin beautifully just can't anymore.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And that, uh, sometimes I s- think, "Man, I wish I had put all that time into something that lasted longer," like the violin, right?
Sean McDowell
Sure.
Erik Thoennes
And so I think there's a right place-
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... 'cause the reason you're losing it, Sean, is 'cause you're dying.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
I'm serious.
Sean McDowell
That's a fact.
Erik Thoennes
It is.
Sean McDowell
That's a fact.
Erik Thoennes
And we're all dying, and the curse is tearing us up.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
And so our tendons, our ligaments, our muscles, our bones, our, uh, our brain is... I remember playing with guys and there'd be a loose ball, and there'd be this guy in his 50s, and I'm like, "Come on, man. Get on that loose ball." And now I totally get it.
Sean McDowell
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
That it's totally not worth it. But I'm not- (laughs)
Sean McDowell
It's not. Amen to that.
Erik Thoennes
So I think there's a right place to grieve the loss of something that the fall and the curse has, has brought.
Sean McDowell
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
The reason... Yeah. Uh, so- but on the other hand-... we can take such comfort in the fact that the most important stuff that was going on, we take with us through our lives, and I think into-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... eternity. Nothing was wasted just because you've lost those abilities. And I remember starting to lose it. I played pretty competitively till I was like 50 in leagues and stuff in footb- uh, flag football and basketball. And I can remember starting to lose it. Like, I remember first time I couldn't dunk anymore. I was like, "What's that about?" And, but I started to take more joy.
Scott Rae
I, I can't relate to that. (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) I started to take more joy in just the feeling of it-
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
... and the sound of the ball going through the, the net when, when it was a, a, a good shot. And just the... even the aesthetics of the whole thing and the poetry of it. Basketball is called ballet in sneakers, right?
Scott Rae
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Erik Thoennes
And so, so the, the enjoyment of the movement of it, the camaraderie of it, I miss that-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... probably more than anything.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
I, I used to play with students here. In, in one game, my relationships would go to completely different level.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
In one game. That would have take months and months otherwise.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
It's so... sports has the ability to have this intense relational bonding as well.
Scott Rae
That's true.
Erik Thoennes
I remember I played in this league in Chicago. It was a really intense flag football league, and I showed up halfway through the season. I got recruited to play on this team halfway through the season. And these guys are all big leaguin' me, acting like they... we all had played in college or beyond and everybody was acting cool. I caught the winning touchdown in that first game. These guys are hugging me.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
They're, they're calling me all these names, it, the, the... a- a- affectionately. It would have taken years, if ever, to get to that point-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... with these guys who are all professionals now. The, uh, it's, it's amazing what that sort of environment-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... is able to produce. I mean, even playing with you guys. I, I know the, the, the people on this campus, men and women, that I've played with. And there's a different level. There's a, there's a-
Scott Rae
That's true.
Erik Thoennes
... there's a lit prof and I used to love getting rebounds and kicking it out to him so he'd get it. And we don't know each other well, but we have this (laughs) thing-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... that's amazing. It's, it's amazing how, how it, it can go so deep so quickly.
Scott Rae
Amen. Now, Eric, let's talk to the parents here for a minute. Uh, why is it that we see f- n- I, I would say it's not uncommon for parents to have a greater investment in their child's athletic success than the child would?
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
Uh, why does that happen?
Erik Thoennes
So, first thing I wanna do is recommend a brand new book that just came out by my friend Ed Uszynski and another guy called Away Game and it, it-
Scott Rae
We're interviewing him.
Erik Thoennes
... it's great. And you also interview David Mathis. Gr- that was a great interview-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... on his book on exercise. And that's another thing, I love-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... his book on exercise 'cause it makes you more-
Scott Rae
Great.
Erik Thoennes
... useful for the kingdom. That's why you stay fit. That's why you do sports. What you do... it's why you do everything. I wanna be more useful for the kingdom. Love that.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
So I wanna recommend that book. But, but I, I think parents often are living vicariously through their children. That's-
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
... one of the problems. Like, you, you don't feel like you accomplished everything you could or should have, so you're gonna do it through your kids. Another aspect is you just genuinely want to m- uh, facilitate something your kid is good at in a way that enables them to get to the highest level of it, and that can be a good motivation. But man, you lose perspective so quickly in your child's future in this. And, and s- he's not gonna have a future in it. (laughs) Right?
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
I'm just telling you, he's not gonna have a future in it. Get out of this what you want to get out of it, which is that growth and who that person is. And I encourage parents, "Look, don't always assume you're gonna be your kid's coach. It's actually great to let somebody else be the coach so you can be-
Scott Rae
I agree with that.
Erik Thoennes
... the dad." And you're probably not gonna be the best person to help your kid with that sport. And for me, like when my, my kids were playing soccer, I never played soccer, I don't especially like soccer. (laughs)
Scott Rae
(laughs) It's called football, Eric.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) Dave Oak was here, he says, he says, "It'd be a better sport if you made the, the nets twice as big and had two balls going at it all the time."
Scott Rae
(laughs) Oh, uh... (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
But, uh, oh, no. Don't get mad. And see-
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
... like if somebody's mad at me 'cause I said that-
Scott Rae
They're not. Don't worry. (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
... it's out of proportion.
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
Right? Your love for soccer is out of proportion if you're mad at me for saying that. But, uh, I... like when my kid was playing a sport I never played, it was way easier for me to not get involved and to just be dad.
Scott Rae
That's totally true.
Erik Thoennes
But when, when I knew what was going on, it was really hard for me. But I forced myself as much (laughs) as I could to get in the car and not say, "Would you pump fake now and then?" (laughs)
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
I, I actually offered my, my son five bucks per pump fake.
Scott Rae
Oh, I love that.
Erik Thoennes
'Cause people don't ball fake anymore.
Scott Rae
That is awesome.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) But anyway, it's one of the best things you can do.
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
But, but, but I, I worked hard to say, "Hey, let's go get ice cream," and not be the coach in the car. Just be dad. Just be encouraging, put it in perspective. And the other thing is, you know, we grew up in, uh, Cats in the Cradle era where every parent was starting to be concerned about being neglectful to the point where you never miss a game and you, you never miss a practice even. There, there are parents who go to all the practices now (laughs) and so-
Scott Rae
I know.
Erik Thoennes
... sometimes I think, you know, just miss some of your kids' games to show them it's not as important as everybody acts like it is. (laughs) It's not that important-
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
... right? And, and a piano recital's just as important if not more in some ways. And so, so let's keep things in perspective and value character display. And, and the, and the other thing I say is, man, when a kid has a athletic ability, it's so easy for parents to pile on with, "Oh, this is our little athlete." And it's what they lead with.
Scott Rae
Yeah.
Erik Thoennes
It's not character. It's not fruit of the spirit. It's not... man, th- this is Sean. He, he's very servant-hearted, you know?
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.
Erik Thoennes
Those sorts of things that God really cares about. "Oh, this is our musician. This is..." You know, even, "This is our brat."
Scott Rae
(laughs)
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) People label their kids-
Scott Rae
True.
Erik Thoennes
... with positive and negative things, and, and don't help in that.
Scott Rae
Mm-hmm.Well, I think that, that message for parents, I think is-
Erik Thoennes
Great.
Scott Rae
... is really appropriate, uh, 'cause I, I think in a lot of cases, parents take it more seriously than the kid does. And I think the kids, I think are thrown off guard with that.
Erik Thoennes
Yes.
Scott Rae
Um, and, you know, that critique... I mean, I, I don't like hearing critique after I've, right after I've preached a sermon.
Erik Thoennes
(laughs) Right.
Scott Rae
You know? That's the last time I wanna hear that.
Erik Thoennes
Give me some space, right?
Scott Rae
Yeah, yeah. And I think our kids don't a- don't appreciate that critique, you know, right in the moment. I think that, "Let, let's go get lunch together-"
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. Yeah.
Scott Rae
... is really well taken.
Erik Thoennes
I, I have a friend who, he had two sons who were really good baseball players.
Scott Rae
Hm.
Erik Thoennes
And they were in early high school years, and he realized, "We've never gone on a family road trip because it's always baseball." And he said- Oh, wow.
Scott Rae
... he said, "I know they'll never go for it, but I'm gonna suggest that we quit baseball for the summer and go on a road trip all over the country as a family," assuming the kids would say, "Dad, no way. I'm about to peak here. I'm about to get scholarship offers." He threw it out there, the kids were like, "Yes! Let's go!" He couldn't believe how much it was more important to him than it was (laughs) to them. And you know how that is, you know. If you get out of the, the routine, that could be your spot, that could be your scholarship.
Erik Thoennes
Oh, yeah. So, so people just depend so much on it, and his kids just wanted to go see grandma on the East Coast way more than playing baseball. He couldn't believe it, and he, he realized just what you're saying, Scott. It was way more important to him than them.
Scott Rae
Well, Eric, we're at the end of our time today, but I think for, for another conversation would be helping parents navigate the conflict between sports and church, 'cause I had a, I had a, I had a w- a coach on my club team-
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... and she saw, she saw our schedule. Almost all our games were on a Sunday morning. You know what she said to me? She said, "I wonder what God thinks about our schedule." (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
Hmm.
Scott Rae
I thought, "Yikes. I, I don't really have a good answer for that."
Erik Thoennes
Yeah.
Scott Rae
Um, so that- that's, I think, another part that is, is, I think, worth another conversation on this.
Erik Thoennes
Yeah. Church is more important would be my simple statement to that.
Scott Rae
(laughing) Well, Eric, this has been so helpful. I really appreciate just your own, your, I mean, your own background, what you bring to this as a, I'd say, I'd say semi-elite athlete. Is that fair? S- Semi-elite?
Erik Thoennes
Oh, I give him elite, man.
Scott Rae
Would you really? (laughs)
Erik Thoennes
Come on, man. Give it to him.
Scott Rae
Okay. All right. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to bust your chops on that, but, uh, so appreciate your perspective on this, and I hope both athletes and parents, and I think just, just the listeners who are just about play, you know-
Erik Thoennes
Mm-hmm.
Scott Rae
... I hope we never outgrow the playfulness that you talk about being embedded in creation and is a part of the character of God-
Erik Thoennes
Amen.
Scott Rae
... as well.
Erik Thoennes
Amen.
Scott Rae
So, this has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering programs in Southern California and online. Uh, visit biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more about that. If you wanna submit comments, ask questions, make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you'd enjoyed- you enjoyed today's conversation with our colleague, Dr. Eric Thoennes, please give us a rating on your podcast app. All of tho- all those ratings matter, uh, and, and feel free to share it with a friend. And join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything.
